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  1. #111
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    Since someone broached the subject of "ignorance", apparently some folks don't know the difference between the posessive pronoun "their" and the adverb or pronoun "there". Also, I should point out that something works "well"(adverb), not "good"(adjective). As a USAF electronics tech for a decade, I have a fair understanding of electronics. Were desulfation practical, I'm sure it would be a more widespread practice. If you guys want to scrounge batteries from the dump and revive them, knock yourselves out. I'll stick with replacing them when their service life is over. They are far more dependable that way.

  2. #112
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    Desulfation is widely accepted as a means of extending battery life. It's not voodoo... there is good science behind the technology. In fact, while I can't speak for military applications, in General Aviation it's a commonly used technology, particularly for those of us who don't fly as frequently as we would like to. It's been widely reviewed and tested in the aviation press, and at least one aviation battery manufacturer (Concorde) has worked closely with a battery charger manufacturer to custom-design charging profiles - including desulfation cycles - for their aviation batteries.

    Desulfation circuits are also not uncommon to see in automotive-type chargers (though the low end chargers typically do not have this feature). Phone companies use chargers with desulfation circuits to maintain their back-up battery banks. It's also widely accepted in the marine and RV world, as well as in renewable energy systems where batteries are used for back-up or storage.
    ______________

    While I try to make an effort to use appropriate grammar in my posts, to me that's not really a primary concern for this forum or many other internet discussion groups. Getting the idea across clearly is. Occasionally, I run across a post that I just can't make head or tail of. When that happens, if I need more clarity, I just ask. There are grammatical errors that are like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, but when I run into them online, I just get over it. This is a tractor forum, not a discussion group for Stunk and White's Elements of Style.
    Last edited by John_Mc; 06-07-2013 at 02:42 PM.
    If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.
    - Abraham Maslow

  3. #113
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    Sorry if you feel attacked, not my intention to attack you personally but to attack ignorance. Ignorance can be cured and most of us appreciate being disabused of wrong thinking. It isn't that I don't know the difference between their and there but my fingers can easily outrun my brain and the spell checker doesn't do grammar checking.

    USAF huh? What was your MOS? I was also USAF and went to a 8 month electronics course where we learned lots of stuff, some of which was useful. Having made my living in various technical areas I have a more accepting attitude regarding being shown something new I hadn't been aware of previously. I too rail against "snake oil" like pills to put in your gas tank to let you use water instead of gasoline. There is lots of junk with no valid science behind it for sale. However when honest folks are reporting success with a circuit that you haven't tried it is disrespectful to indict them as believing in philosopher's stone etc. As it has been pointed out by others there are lots of commercial applications of this equipment. You come across like the fictitious aeronautical engineer who proclaimed the bumblebee could not sustain flight as the wings were too small, too inefficient and powered by muscles incapable of sustaining flight and the fuel consumption would be too great for the on-board energy reserves thus the bee could not maintain flight. Since the bee does maintain flight it is safe to assume that at least one of the assumptions was wrong.

    Similarly there is good science behind the desulfation of batteries to extend their life. This is true even though you were ignorant of it.

    When you can't fault the science and cant find flaw in the logic resorting to picking on a trivial typo in an unwarranted ad hominem attack is not a way to increase your esteem in the eyes of your fellow TBN'ers.

    I apologize again if I have made you uncomfortable. Not to worry, this will all blow over soon, a tempest in a teapot as it were.

    Oh by the way, I have at times made my living as an electronic circuit designer in diverse endeavors ranging from medical electronic equipment to man packed battery operated welders. I have seen the impossible done too many times to be eager to count coup on someone claiming to be doing something just because I hadn't seen it before or studied it in the USAF.

    By the way... thanks for your service to our nation.

    Patrick
    Never wrestle with a pig (however titled) as you just get dirty and the pig has all the fun.

  4. #114
    Super Star Member Egon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    My old battery is getting pretty run down Pat. Think it could be sulphating plates?
    Egon
    50 years behind the times
    Livin in a
    Worn out skin bag filled with rattlin bones

  5. #115
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick_g View Post
    Sorry if you feel attacked, not my intention to attack you personally but to attack ignorance. Ignorance can be cured and most of us appreciate being disabused of wrong thinking. It isn't that I don't know the difference between their and there but my fingers can easily outrun my brain and the spell checker doesn't do grammar checking.

    USAF huh? What was your MOS? I was also USAF and went to a 8 month electronics course where we learned lots of stuff, some of which was useful. Having made my living in various technical areas I have a more accepting attitude regarding being shown something new I hadn't been aware of previously. I too rail against "snake oil" like pills to put in your gas tank to let you use water instead of gasoline. There is lots of junk with no valid science behind it for sale. However when honest folks are reporting success with a circuit that you haven't tried it is disrespectful to indict them as believing in philosopher's stone etc. As it has been pointed out by others there are lots of commercial applications of this equipment. You come across like the fictitious aeronautical engineer who proclaimed the bumblebee could not sustain flight as the wings were too small, too inefficient and powered by muscles incapable of sustaining flight and the fuel consumption would be too great for the on-board energy reserves thus the bee could not maintain flight. Since the bee does maintain flight it is safe to assume that at least one of the assumptions was wrong.

    Similarly there is good science behind the desulfation of batteries to extend their life. This is true even though you were ignorant of it.

    When you can't fault the science and cant find flaw in the logic resorting to picking on a trivial typo in an unwarranted ad hominem attack is not a way to increase your esteem in the eyes of your fellow TBN'ers.

    I apologize again if I have made you uncomfortable. Not to worry, this will all blow over soon, a tempest in a teapot as it were.

    Oh by the way, I have at times made my living as an electronic circuit designer in diverse endeavors ranging from medical electronic equipment to man packed battery operated welders. I have seen the impossible done too many times to be eager to count coup on someone claiming to be doing something just because I hadn't seen it before or studied it in the USAF.

    By the way... thanks for your service to our nation.

    Patrick
    I can see where anti-sulfation techniques could prolong the life of in-use, serviceable batteries. I still don't think it a prudent use of time and resources to go dump picking for old batteries, but as I said previously, go for it if you want. Still a free country, at least for a while. When I was in the USAF, and it's been a while since I retired in 1992, it was called an Air Force Specialty Code, or AFSC. Mine was 32470, or Precision Measuring Equipment (PME) Technician. I was in tech school at Lowry AFB in Denver in 1972, and later an instructor in '76-'77.

  6. #116
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    Quote Originally Posted by Egon View Post
    My old battery is getting pretty run down Pat. Think it could be sulphating plates?
    Maybe. If you leave it hooked up to a couple amp charger overnight every night in winter time as many folks used to do in the frozen NORTH that could be a problem. During my three winter stay in Minot, ND lots of guys would take the batteries out of their cars every night during the cold winter weather so the output wouldn't plummet with their temperature. Anyone who thinks the battery rejuvenator in this thread is a Rube Goldberg contraption would faint away if they saw some of the homebrew battery chargers used overnight on these removed batteries to top them off for the next morning's starting struggle.

    On the other hand it might just be bad karma.

    Have you guys thawed out yet? We are having a premature heat wave and getting mid to low 90's in the PMs.
    Never wrestle with a pig (however titled) as you just get dirty and the pig has all the fun.

  7. #117
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    I came out of school as a 34151A and for 3 years was the 3 1/2 men called for in the SAC manning document per unit of assigned equipment.

    I haven't advocated dumpster diving for batteries but a significant percentage might be restored sufficiently to last a while. I'm not surprised that a denizen of a PMEL activity would be more than a tad persnickety about things being JUST SO. I try to apply the degree of perfection that is practical for the issue at hand. I have used nanoammeters and such as well as a Simpson 260 or PSM-6 (USAF tool.) MY last interface with a PMEL was when the base film librarian borrowed a VTVM and tried to measure the impedance of the local power station with it. The cooling louvers showed heavy smoke emission and shaking the instrument made it sound like maracas from all the ceramic material where the precision wirewound resisters had blown up. I got it back from PMEL in what looked to be perfect order, brand new looking but with original serial number.

    Patrick
    Never wrestle with a pig (however titled) as you just get dirty and the pig has all the fun.

  8. #118
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    Quote Originally Posted by patrick_g View Post
    I came out of school as a 34151A and for 3 years was the 3 1/2 men called for in the SAC manning document per unit of assigned equipment.

    I haven't advocated dumpster diving for batteries but a significant percentage might be restored sufficiently to last a while. I'm not surprised that a denizen of a PMEL activity would be more than a tad persnickety about things being JUST SO. I try to apply the degree of perfection that is practical for the issue at hand. I have used nanoammeters and such as well as a Simpson 260 or PSM-6 (USAF tool.) MY last interface with a PMEL was when the base film librarian borrowed a VTVM and tried to measure the impedance of the local power station with it. The cooling louvers showed heavy smoke emission and shaking the instrument made it sound like maracas from all the ceramic material where the precision wirewound resisters had blown up. I got it back from PMEL in what looked to be perfect order, brand new looking but with original serial number.

    Patrick
    Ah, the old PSM-6. Replaced many a meter movement from guys using the 50 microamp special range to measure voltage.

  9. #119
    Veteran Member Treemonkey1000's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    You guys are speaking my language with Simpson and that sort of stuff. I work at a Primary Standards calibration lab here in Seattle. We have our standards from NIST to test every thing from capacitance, resistance, voltage, current to better than the gnats eyebrow. The first meter I grab for just basic trouble shooting is my 260. Unless I need some really accurate measurements. Right now I work on RF microwave equipment.. It's a great job and I get paid to play. And my other job is tree work and radio towers so I get to play there as well.
    Last edited by Treemonkey1000; 06-12-2013 at 09:58 AM.
    1st Peter 1:6-9

  10. #120
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    Default Re: A Battery Rejuvenator

    Quote Originally Posted by Egon View Post
    My old battery is getting pretty run down Pat. Think it could be sulphating plates?
    Quote Originally Posted by patrick_g View Post
    Maybe. If you leave it hooked up to a couple amp charger overnight every night in winter time as many folks used to do in the frozen NORTH that could be a problem...
    My understanding was that sulfation was accelerated by leaving a lead acid battery partially discharged, particularly for an extended period of time. Over-charging can certainly cause problems as well, but I'm not sure they're the same problems. They best strategy for extending lead-acid battery life is a preventative one. Avoid deeply cycling the battery; if it is partially discharged, charge it fully as soon as possible; do not overcharge; desulphation can be part of an effective preventive maintenance strategy -- it works a whole lot better than trying to "revive" a damaged battery (even though some of them can be revived).

    On the other hand, it's been a long time since I read up on desulfation. I researched it enough to convince me to buy a couple of VDC BatteryMinders. I got the relatively inexpensive model 1500 for use with auto/tractor/camper batteries (when it was on sale at Northern Tool). I also got a 24 volt aviation-specific charger/desulfator for my aircraft -- it was not cheap, but at around $400 for a new battery, it's worth putting some effort in to extending the life (especially since I'm not flying very frequently these days, and need to counter the battery's natural tendency to self-discharge over time).

    BTW... my brother-in-law is a hard-core dumpster diver. Almost all of his automotive or batteries are reclaimed from junk yards. He's had no where near a 100% success rate, but I guess it's just a matter of where your personal trade-off between spending time or money lies. He seems to take a lot of pleasure out of milking every last bit of usefulness out of anything he owns.
    If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.
    - Abraham Maslow

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