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  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18
    Location
    Carthage, NY
    Tractor
    IH 3414 Industrial

    Default Cold hydraulics

    I own a IH3414 backhoe and was digging last week-end while it was snowing, about 30 deg. F. Before the machine warmed up the pump was cavatating fairly bad. I think that was what it was doing anyway. I have the recommended oil "Hytran" in the reservoir. Is there a trick to solving this problem? Heater maybe? The oil is new that I put in, cost $90 so I don't want to change it. Does this cavatation hurt the pump? I know you guys have all the good answers so thank you in advance.

  2. #2
    Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    566
    Location
    West Valley, New York
    Tractor
    2004 JD 4310 300CX 72MM, dozers, excavtors, bachoes, loader, tractors.

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics

    Well first how do you know it was cavitating? What was the unit doing that makes you think that? I am not sure if I can give you any info but will try after hearing what you have to say. Just basically give us the details of what was going on? Well talk later

    Darin

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    2,518
    Location
    Capital District, Upstate New York
    Tractor
    Satoh S650G, MF135, MF165, JD5205

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics

    <font color=blue>...Does this cavatation hurt the pump?...</font color=blue>

    1st... Cavitation is NOT Good... [img]/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif[/img]

    Depending on the circumstances and type of pump, some hydraulic pumps can "self destruct" very quickly without addressing the cavitation issue... then you have a major expense... (worse case scenario is running a hydraulic pump without any fluid (or bone dry) [img]/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif[/img])

    Check with your Case/IH dealer to verify if a "heater" is available for your unit...

    By the way, how many gallons did you change to cost over $90...? [img]/w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif[/img]

  4. #4
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Posts
    1,344
    Location
    West Virginia (Eastern Panhandle)
    Tractor
    '78 Kubota B6100DT

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics

    My kubota B6100 loader hydraulic pump does that when it's cold out. (Pump makes a noise that is clearly cavitation whenever the loader controls are operated).

    It's not nearly as sophisticated a system as your IH3414 backhoe (or anyone else's equipment for that matter).

    The service manager at the Kubota dealer told me to "cut" the hydraulic oil 50/50 with diesel fuel in the winter time to thin it out. Well, I know it's an old tractor but I just couldn't bring myself to trust that advice. I just try to do minimal operating of the loader until the hydraulics warm up. I suppose some kind of a heater on the hydraulic reservoir might work, though.

  5. #5
    Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    566
    Location
    West Valley, New York
    Tractor
    2004 JD 4310 300CX 72MM, dozers, excavtors, bachoes, loader, tractors.

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics & pump cavitation

    I guess maybe I'm missing it but what are you guys meaning about the "cavitation" symptoms? And how does a full system cavitate if maintained with the proper fluids and filters? I am not questioning that it's cavatating or not but I would like to know how and why now.

    I don't blame you for not wanting to put diesel fuel 50/50 mixture in your hydraulic system either. I mean if anything go with a thinner or synthetic blend.

    Darin

  6. #6
    Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    566
    Location
    West Valley, New York
    Tractor
    2004 JD 4310 300CX 72MM, dozers, excavtors, bachoes, loader, tractors.

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics & pump cavitation

    ANother thing is that they (most brands o.k maybe some [img]/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif[/img]) do tell you to warm up the hyd oil by fully extending or curling cylinders to pass oil through system and raising pressures. Is the cavitation caused by the suction pressure being lower? But how much lower can this be to create such havoc in our systems with hydraulic oil? Basically just thinking out loud. [img]/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Darin



  7. #7
    Epic Contributor MossRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    22,957
    Location
    South Bend, Indiana (near)
    Tractor
    Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics

    I have an IH2500B and use the same fluid. When I was operating it often and the temps start dropping, my warm up times started rising. Especially in the 30s and 20s. I usually started it up and let it run for 20 minutes at about 1/3 throttle. After that, there was no sluggishness to the hydraulics and no "noises". I have never operated it below 20 degrees. There are some instructions in the operators manuals dealing with cold weather. Don't have the manuals? for IH parts and manuals at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.batescorp.com>http://www.batescorp.com

    My PT425 uses motor oil for hydraulic fluid. I warm it up for 10-15 minutes when it is under 32 degrees as well.

  8. #8
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    277
    Location
    Pgh, PA
    Tractor
    Cub Cadet 7360SS & MF1100

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics

    I had to change 20 gallons in my old IH656 Hydro and HyTran was about $30+ per 5 glns... Ouch.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    477
    Location
    Fort Kent, Maine
    Tractor
    B6100D Kubota

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics

    I can empathize with that Bill. On my 6100, I usually put a space heater to it for a while, then I run it with the PTO engaged for a few more minutes. Then I cycle everything a few times just to stir it up abit. Sounds like a long process, but easier on these old tractors than just heading out to the first snow bank.

    Went out to start the 6100 this afternoon, (got 12 inches of the white stuff), and it started right up. Ran for 2 minutes then stopped. Summer fuel gels pretty good in this weather. Put the heater on it, warmed it up real good, then ran the battery down starting it. Got that charged up and the hydraulics froze. Back came the heater. (Did I mention that the tractor was not anywhere near the house? Teach me to leave it out for a few days.)

    Anyway, got the hydraulics working and noticed the bucket wouldn't lift. Curls OK, great down pressure, but no lift. Did alot of what my father called backwoods praying. (My mother washed out our mouths when she caught us praying in this manner. Finally found a frozed section of pressure line. Seems my fluid has more than a little moisture in it. Guess I'm gonna be changing fluid between blizzards this winter.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Posts
    1,720
    Location
    Columbia county NY
    Tractor
    87 Ingersoll 444, 84 Ingersoll224/'44 GreavlyL/60'sGreavlyL/49 Ford 8N

    Default Re: Cold hydraulics & pump cavitation

    <font color=red>And how does a full system cavitate if maintained with the proper fluids and filters? I am not questioning that it's cavatating or not but I would like to know how and why now.
    </font color=red>

    I could be wrong, but here is why I think it happans. When the oil in the system is cold it gets a lot thicker. The pump trys to suck the oil from the tank, but the oil is so thick, it does not flow to the pump. Think of sucking Jello through a straw. It is not going to come up the straw like water, it will come up in blobs of Jello. Thats what the oil does, and inbetween each blob is a little pocket of air.

    My Ingersoll is fully hydro powerd, and also uses motor oil for the fluid. In the cold she does make a racket. I start it up, let the motor warm up, then put the trans in nutrul.[hydro driven two speed trans] then send psi to it. That spins the drive motor, with very little load on it, and lets it warm up. When its REAL cold, it will almost stall the motor. After a few min, its fine.

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