Ballast almost flipped the tractor, really need some help!

[Marauderer]

Or we could leave it to "Mother Nature" to sort out the gene pools that should be allowed to own a tractor!!

[daugen]

I know you are just joking, I think...
but all of us make mistakes and one of the
best values of this forum is learning how not to
make them yourself. We are all on a learning curve, the trick is getting up
high enough without hurting yourself. Sorta like we all did with cars way back when.

I'm a long time boater and share your sentiments about "idiots out there" who will hopefully not reproduce. And we all see
terrible driving skills and inattention out on the roads. Those of us who like machinery and operating that
machinery with good skills try to operate with care. But as an older guy who learned on old tippy tractors, the problems the OP
had never would have occurred with an older tractor. It would have flipped over long before, particularly with tricycle front gear.
So our newer tractors have a lot more safety engineering in them, and I think are much safer than what I drove 50 years ago,
which is all good. So tippy is as tippy does so we all hope to come home safely. Drew

Gravity, friction and my own limitations keep my focus.

[DogwoodPapa]

First things first, glad to hear you were not injured and the tractor did not flip all the way. Now, lower the bucket to get those rear wheels back on the ground.

2nd, keep the bucket on the ground and power back up the hill - slowly. The bucket can be used as a skid to keep the rear wheels down.

3rd, more weight on the rear. Your tractor is properly balanced with no FEL or 3pt implement - naked, in other words. Add the FEL and you are front heavy.

4th, low and slow! Use the right gears and that hill will never be a problem with power going up the hill - but that's another thing we all had to learn. It's just that some lessons are scarier (or more expensive) than others. Stay safe and keep trying.

[Jesse masterson]

Driving a tractor is like a loaded gun , it can kill ya quick , I would suggest staying away from iffy situations till ya get more experience . or let someone with more experience drive on those situations and ask alot of questions. It's like anything the more you do it the more you recognize the dangers.

[Marauderer]

I know you are just joking, I think...
but all of us make mistakes and one of the
best values of this forum is learning how not to
make them yourself. We are all on a learning curve, the trick is getting up
high enough without hurting yourself. Sorta like we all did with cars way back when.

I'm a long time boater and share your sentiments about "idiots out there" who will hopefully not reproduce. And we all see
terrible driving skills and inattention out on the roads. Those of us who like machinery and operating that
machinery with good skills try to operate with care. But as an older guy who learned on old tippy tractors, the problems the OP
had never would have occurred with an older tractor. It would have flipped over long before, particularly with tricycle front gear.
So our newer tractors have a lot more safety engineering in them, and I think are much safer than what I drove 50 years ago,
which is all good. So tippy is as tippy does so we all hope to come home safely. Drew

Drew, Kinda of Joking but, not completely. I am on my first tractor and it is a SCUT. That doesn't mean it won't kill me any less quicker than a bigger one. I studied for a year before I bought one and I am still tippee toeing arounbd learning. The gent that started this thread is a good guy. He was fortunate to not get hurt or damage his tractor when he had his near escape with serious injury or death. He also has had an invaluable learning experience and with the additional pointers he got from just this thread i wouldn't expect him to have any more terrible situations.

Anyway Mother Nature back up by the infamous "Mr. Murphy" will take care of the worst offenders. The book you referenced I had already ordered from Amazon and am waiting for it to arrive.

[RaydaKub]

I would suggest staying away from iffy situations till ya get more experience

And therein lies the problem. The OP didn't recognize it as iffy. He's a lot smarter now, as are we all. I give him credit for recognizing he needed help and showed up here.

[Jesse masterson]

I meant no disrespect to the OP in my previous post if I offended anyone I'm sorry , I just don't want to think of anyone killed , sometimes there is mo learning curve after the first one !

[My Hoe]

I had the same problem when I was new to tractors. Here is what I learned...
Rule of thumb with loaders. Always carry a load close to the ground as possible. Never pick up a load when the tractor is on a side angle. Never use the loader raised in the air to push against anything! When on hills travel front up or down with loader close to the ground. The loader should never be used as a dig device. You will damage your transmission. A loader is just that. For Loose ground, gravel, back grading and such. Always wear your seat belt! As an option install a pre-tip over warning alarm. And Always have a counter weight. Hope that helps.

Is there a "Rule of Hills"?
This is a "newbie" question, and I know that, because I see those with experience refer to it only causally, but if you're in a TLB, especially a cabbed TLB, like a B3030, within a heavy, 8' hoe on the back, should you:

a) always back down a hill, and drive (forward) up a hill, as I've seen some seem to imply?
b) or always back up a hill?

Or IS there no "always"?

I'm guessing the answer is "always keep your FEL up-slope, regardless of your DIRECTION of travel, because the rear axle is SOLID, and the front axle is on a center pivot." (The center pivot would lend itself to "SHOULDER-ROLL" to the SIDE, much like the OP's JD was trying to do, with it's front wheels to one side--IMO).

In other words, is there a general rule, which I can take to heart, as a cabbed B3030 with a larger hoe (which I hope to get) will definitely have a higher COG than just about any other configuration I can think of.

And IF there's a RULE, is it ALL about the center-pivot, or is there some obvious weight-distribution factor in play, that I'm not seeing?



Related Boating Analogy
A few posts "upstream" (pun-intended) "Marauder", a fellow boater (I'm a life-time boater myself) made mention of his water-hobby and for those not familiar, there is a similar way a boat can get "jacked," or "shoulder-rolled," just in the way the OP's JD almost did. When you're in DEEP swells, you want to "surf" on their backsides, bow up, which requires careful throttle management, because there's always some "cross-sea" you don't want to hit too hard, so you might "lose your place," on the back of the big wave you're riding, even if you are careful. Well, if you happen to GO OVER the crest of the monster you're "surfing" on, now you're heading down in the trough (or "ditch," if you were going parallel with it) and this is the LAST place you want to be.

Why? Because the bow of a boat, I realize as I write this, acts VERY MUCH like the center-pivoted front axle of a tractor.

Look at the OP's JD--you don't want to "stuff" your bow into the bottom of that trough, at the same time that there's a swell under your stern, but if you DO so, you at least want to be STRAIGHT ON, just the way you want to go STRAIGHT UP, OR STRAIGHT DOWN, a hill on a tractor.

The WORST is when you're at, say, a 45-degree angle, and the "following sea" LITERALLY just JACKS UP ONE REAR CORNER, while you're bow is "stuffed,"--THE ANALOGY IS TO THE CENTER-PIVOT ON THE TRACTOR. You never want to have a "following sea" get under your stern, but if you do, you NEVER want it to be ONLY ON ONE SIDE, because you can do the same "SHOULDER ROLL" that the OP's JD was about to do.

I hope that is half as fun to read, as it was to write--if not, I apologize. I guess I miss my boating days (please knock on wood REAL WOOD for me, three times? Thanks...).

And yes, I almost got "jacked" just once (my term, but that's what it feels like--you're just waiting to see if you're going to do that sideways-endo--but there's no ROPS and no seatbelt! LOL). All of the references to needing to "do laundry" or "bury your skivvies" apply, 100%, too! It's THAT CLOSE, in reality, and as a feeling. I haven't allowed another wave to get under me like that since. And my boat, at 22.5', isn't tiny, either. The waves were probably only four-footers, but they LOOKED like six-footers. (They automatically "grow" a foot if you're alone, and two more feet if it's at night. My near-roll was in late December evening-daylight, near the Canadian border, and I was still a little shaken by the time I tied up.)

Funny, the "cross-pollination" between seemingly unrelated machinery, huh?

Hey Marauder--you mentioned those that we hope don't reproduce--how's this one grab you? A night-time crossing (I'm dodging the ocean-going freighters, shoals, buoys and trying to see "my" bay, near shore) when a boat comes shooting across my bow (of course, I'm to their starboard, so I have the right of way, but I guess nobody told them...).

But THEY'RE TOWING AN UNLIGHTED BOAT--and fast! IT, TOO, "swishes" by, right across my bow, waaay behind the first boat, and much closer than the first boat. Talk about "losing your head"! Yeah, I'm hoping they use birth control, at best....



Re: Loaded Tires
And it's my understanding that Kubota does NOT want loaded tires used with a back hoe? Though I know probably 75% or more TBN'ers ignore that, if I had to guess?

Anyone know the reason for Kubota's prohibition of loaded tires with a backhoe? I'm thinking too much stress on the rear axle? Yet there do not seem to be "pattern failures" associated with this common practice?

Further, I have a barn-floor weight limit issue, which means I would not want loaded tires anyway. I mention that only to say that I am resigned to having a TLB with a higher center of gravity than most, so I REALLY want to have the "which way is up" issue CLARIFIED. I already know not to traverse a side hill, and to ONLY go straight up or straight down, but I would love it if someone would lay out for me if it's always ONE WAY, (assuming both FEL and hoe are mounted) or not?



Staged? No, But Maybe It SHOULD Have Been....
Oh--I don't think the OP staged the near-spill, but I can think of a good MOTIVE to, which I mention with the hope that it will AID him in negotiating with this *cough* "dealer," either to get him a lighter, narrower 4-in-1, or a second bucket, with ballast box (in either case) or SOMETHING for his dangerous experience. He has this excellent photo, which he can show to prove to the dealer that the bucket is too big for the machine.

As someone before me aleady pointed out, when the bucket on a CUT eats up so much lift capacity that a SCUT like a BX can outlift it then, absent a very specific need for that bucket, I think that's almost criminal, as in misrepresenting what the OP was being sold. A tractor that big that can only lift (what was it somebody said?) 343lbs? That seems a little ridiculous.

Glad the OP wasn't hurt, and had the "intestinal fortitude" (strength of character) to share his experience, so others (like me) could learn from it.

Thanks,

My Hoe

[JohninCT]

EXACTLY! Around here a dealer would be in DEEP DOO DOO for that!!!

PS, a JD 4005 would walk right up those hills, not wasting any power on hydrostatics!!Same size tractor, Collar shift

BEST multi use front end tool!>>>Artillian Tractor Attachments

True, and that's what we would expect in the United States.
However, the OP lives in Australia and how dealers work there may be quite different.

Are you guys somehow saying that it's standard practice or expected for dealers in the US to not sell or deliver tractors in the US with loaders and nothing on the back for ballast? I think not. They sell you what they can/you want not necessarily what's safe.

[JohninCT]

I recently put in an order with a local Australian Victorian State dealer for a KUBOTA MX5100 HST 4WD 4-1 FEL, SLASHER, CANOPY [no BH avail with this model in Aust] and in respect to dealer providing information prior to my purchase...it was non existent unless i asked the questions...he NEVER offered any real advice and it took me a great deal longer to decide which Tractor to finally put an order for.

He was reasonably forthcoming to every email when i asked questions...a novice would or should ask, and inpatient for me to stop the questions and put the order in, but since i have put my deposit down and i asked a couple more questions...he has NOT answered any of the IMPORTANT questions about the appropriate ballast for the MX5100 with Water in the tires, when using FEL with wet clay..

MOST IF NOT ALL my information has come from the very helpful people in the USA on TBN, YOUTUBE, Everything Attachments, ORANGE TRACTOR MECHANIC etc and asking questions to local farmers and relatives for their opinions of Kubota.

I'm thinking that modern day dealer salespeople are probably poorly advised not to put questions into potential buyers heads by offering reasonable advice for ones needs for fear of either delaying or directing buyers to other brands maybe? I dont really know but its been a nightmare trying decide which Tractor would best suit my intended use, as i have flat, gently undulating and steep acrea areas to deal with.

KUBOTA should look into the calibre of the dealership appointments IMO.
IMO KUBOTA should prepare its own series of YOUTUBE sessions of how to drive, operate and use the Tractors in different situations cluding digging up hard clay areas as a service for intending buyers like me BEFORE customers put in a deposit. Some prearranged driving and safety instructions on a real tractor might actually increase sales too IMO.

I stayed with the dealer due to close proximity and the price, but i expected somewhat a better level of salesmanship and service prior to purchase, but i now know i need to find a local mechanic of which there are many to have it serviced because i doubt the dealer is going to be any great help after delivery and I'll be calling KUBOTA direct with any problems.

I had to ask the dealer to put water in the tires as part of the order,

My basic question which I expected him to just provide a 2 second as he should know reply....but

Can anyone here on TBN the source of most of my education....advise me whether a KANGA M150 SLASHER and with water in tires to 90% capacity with wheels set at largest width will be enough for when i operate the FEL in wet clay?

Thanks guys.

The MX5100 is a good sized machine. Definitely get the rear tires filled. I would suggest trying the loader out with the mower on the back and on flat ground to get a feel for how much of the clay soil you can lift. To be safer and maximize the amount you can lift with the FEL you probably want to get or build a heavier rear ballast (like a barrel full of concrete).