Ballast almost flipped the tractor, really need some help!

[bgi]

Are you guys somehow saying that it's standard practice or expected for dealers in the US to not sell or deliver tractors in the US with loaders and nothing on the back for ballast? I think not. They sell you what they can/you want not necessarily what's safe.

My read on that led me to think there was more to it. #1 the dealer knew these guys were new to tractors, so YES to what you said or at least have a discussion about rear ballast. Even worse, #2 the bucket is WAY TOO #$*&# HEAVY for that tractor. NO $#*& EXCUSE for selling them that bucket.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

I have just read the Thinggy42 post and realise that both he and I are both in Australia and both new to tractor use and some readers have assumed that the topic was about dealers in USA when it seems almost evident that at least two dealers in Australia do not pay any serious attention to safety matters such as Ballast on the rear and obviously I must conclude only two possibilities...the First being that Tractors are modified in Australia to ensure Ballast is not required OR Secondly that dealers in Australia are not attending to basic safety & warranty requirements by remaining silent on the issues and not doing their own businesses justice by not attempting to sell extra ballast or implements which can act as defacto ballast. My two conclusions are puzzling and i need to try find out as a matter of urgency which is the case.

In Thingy42 's case it seems obvious that something went terribly wrong and could have resulted in a fatality and the accident would have been examined forensically if it had been on public roads, whereas these issues and accidents do not appear to be investigated as the occur on most occassions on private land and only officially investigated in cases of reported work accidents causing personal injury and deaths. Would others agree?

I again asked my dealer if the MX5100 needed any further ballast other than back tires filled to 90% when using the 4-1 FEL and the answer was that it was adequate.....yet this advice appears to differ to most posters in TBN. I should add that in the process of my inquiries to purchase the MX5100 the BH92 was able to be purchased and used at the rear however this changed due to local safety regulations and now the BH92 cannot be used behind the tractor as the ROPS cannot be modified.

Do I conclude from that action that our safety authorities are on top of all safety matters and my dealers advice to me is correct ?

All comments would be appreciated.

 

[joshuabardwell]

a) always back down a hill, and drive (forward) up a hill, as I've seen some seem to imply?
b) or always back up a hill?

The user manual for my tractor says to always go up and down a hill with the heavy end of the tractor facing up-hill. So if you have a tractor with a loader, the loader bucket would always face uphill. If you had a tractor with an implement on the back and no loader, the implement would always face uphill.

Anyone know the reason for Kubota's prohibition of loaded tires with a backhoe? I'm thinking too much stress on the rear axle? Yet there do not seem to be "pattern failures" associated with this common practice?

I can't speak to Kubota's recommendation, but loaded tires do not place any weight on the axle at all. All of the weight of the tire loading is on the contact patch with the ground. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage. It's an advantage in that it doesn't add to your axle load at all. It's a disadvantage in that it doesn't take any weight off of the front axle and onto the rear axle like a 3ph mounted implement would.

If I had to guess, I would guess that Kubota figures you got a backhoe back there. What more counterweight do you need? If you were going to run your tractor with the backhoe off, you would almost certainly need some other kind of counterweight on the back to safely use your FEL. My owner's manual indicates lifting capacities for the tractor under various conditions (loaded tires with ballast box, etc...). Nowhere does it indicate safe capacity for an un-ballasted tractor. That is, incidentally, the state that my tractor is currently in, and so I go real slow and careful when using the FEL.

Further, I have a barn-floor weight limit issue, which means I would not want loaded tires anyway. I mention that only to say that I am resigned to having a TLB with a higher center of gravity than most, so I REALLY want to have the "which way is up" issue CLARIFIED.

Does your owner's manual say anything on this? My gut would be that it would depend entirely on which end of the tractor was heaviest. Presumably, the backhoe weighs a lot more than the FEL, so I would think you would want to put it on the uphill side.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

Does anyone know how to change direction on a hill and what angle mill is it safe to do so? I have flat to undulating to very steep land in parts....so if im starting out on the flat and driving up a slight slop which later become steeper and i wish to change direction say 90 degrees ....how could i do it safety ...are there any training videos for similar situations when slashing weeds etc or doing trail cutting work ?

 

[RaydaKub]

I again asked my dealer if the MX5100 needed any further ballast other than back tires filled to 90% when using the 4-1 FEL and the answer was that it was adequate....

First, based off several threads I've read here, you should only fill them to 75% (tire valve at 12 o'clock). There should not be a steady stream of fluid coming out if you push the valve. This gives the tire enough air space to still have some give to it when you hit that sharp rock. Second, that much ballast could hold the bucket up and the back end down, but I don't think it would be enough when the bucket actually has something in it.

 

[Marauderer]

I meant no disrespect to the OP in my previous post if I offended anyone I'm sorry , I just don't want to think of anyone killed , sometimes there is mo learning curve after the first one !

Jesse, I for one didn't think you were being disrespectful in any way.

Isn't this a great forum!!

 

[joshuabardwell]

Does anyone know how to change direction on a hill and what angle mill is it safe to do so? I have flat to undulating to very steep land in parts....so if im starting out on the flat and driving up a slight slop which later become steeper and i wish to change direction say 90 degrees ....how could i do it safety ...are there any training videos for similar situations when slashing weeds etc or doing trail cutting work ?

I wanted to wait to see if any more experienced operators would weigh in, but since none are, her is my two cents. There is some safe lateral operating angle for your tractor. What that exact angle is depends on a lot of factors, such as width between your wheels, presence or absence of ballast, and so forth. Whatever that angle may be, there is no safe way that I can think of to exceed that angle, regardless of technique. So if your safe lateral angle is 10% grade, and you are driving up a 10% grade hill, you cannot turn ninety degrees to that grade without entering an unsafe condition. You need to approach the hill from a different point, drive to the top of the hill and then back down it, or something else to get you where you want to go without exceeding the safe operational envelope of the tractor.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Does anyone know how to change direction on a hill and what angle mill is it safe to do so? I have flat to undulating to very steep land in parts....so if im starting out on the flat and driving up a slight slop which later become steeper and i wish to change direction say 90 degrees ....how could i do it safety ...are there any training videos for similar situations when slashing weeds etc or doing trail cutting work ?

I wanted to wait to see if any more experienced operators would weigh in, but since none are, her is my two cents. There is some safe lateral operating angle for your tractor. What that exact angle is depends on a lot of factors, such as width between your wheels, presence or absence of ballast, and so forth. Whatever that angle may be, there is no safe way that I can think of to exceed that angle, regardless of technique. So if your safe lateral angle is 10% grade, and you are driving up a 10% grade hill, you cannot turn ninety degrees to that grade without entering an unsafe condition. You need to approach the hill from a different point, drive to the top of the hill and then back down it, or something else to get you where you want to go without exceeding the safe operational envelope of the tractor. Given this, there may be locations on your property where you simply cannot safely drive your tractor.

 

[JohninCT]

I have just read the Thinggy42 post and realise that both he and I are both in Australia and both new to tractor use and some readers have assumed that the topic was about dealers in USA when it seems almost evident that at least two dealers in Australia do not pay any serious attention to safety matters such as Ballast on the rear and obviously I must conclude only two possibilities...the First being that Tractors are modified in Australia to ensure Ballast is not required OR Secondly that dealers in Australia are not attending to basic safety & warranty requirements by remaining silent on the issues and not doing their own businesses justice by not attempting to sell extra ballast or implements which can act as defacto ballast. My two conclusions are puzzling and i need to try find out as a matter of urgency which is the case.

In Thingy42 's case it seems obvious that something went terribly wrong and could have resulted in a fatality and the accident would have been examined forensically if it had been on public roads, whereas these issues and accidents do not appear to be investigated as the occur on most occassions on private land and only officially investigated in cases of reported work accidents causing personal injury and deaths. Would others agree?

I again asked my dealer if the MX5100 needed any further ballast other than back tires filled to 90% when using the 4-1 FEL and the answer was that it was adequate.....yet this advice appears to differ to most posters in TBN. I should add that in the process of my inquiries to purchase the MX5100 the BH92 was able to be purchased and used at the rear however this changed due to local safety regulations and now the BH92 cannot be used behind the tractor as the ROPS cannot be modified.

Do I conclude from that action that our safety authorities are on top of all safety matters and my dealers advice to me is correct ?

All comments would be appreciated.

I would say only to the extent that they want your ROPS to function as designed if you tip over. However, what you do to get yourself to that point is entirely beyond their control.

If you look at the Rimguard web site they show that for a tire size 17.5L-24 (MX5100 rear R4 per tractordata) 75% full will give 588lbs for each tire (1177lbs total). Your loader can lift 2443 lbs. I think someone posted force diagrams earlier in the thread. Look at these with these numbers in mind. On flat ground you are probably OK because you will have the weight of the tractor and tire ballast behind the front axle pivot helping to offset the opposing force from the bucket. A downward slope, a raised bucket can change this. If it were me, I would (and do) have rear tires filled and extra weight on the 3 point hitch for heavy work with the loader and ALWAYS keeping the bucket as low as possible when travelling with a load in it.

 

[Ron JD670]

Thanks, but I'd rather not learn from a good scare. I'd prefer to learn by reading what y'all post here. Much less hassle on the washing machine!

Thanks for keeping newbies like me safe.

Rog

Almost tipped my used new to me tractor on day two unloading the box blade with a chain on my FEL. Dropped the BB. No damage but had to take 15 minutes to gather myself. Figured out how to add fluid to the tire and hook up box blade for ballast before I did any loader work. Didn't read entire thread so this may be redundant but here is is a link to where you can get an adapter and they have good instructions for you to look at also:
Installing Liquid Ballast in Tires | Gempler'sx
Amazing what water pressure can do
I used a "Y" hose fitting at both ends and laid the hose out on a slope purged the hose then filled with RV anti freeze through a funnel the closed those valves and opened the water valve to inject anti freeze into tire then repeat until filled to valve stem.
What a difference in stability.

Again sorry if this is late and redundant.

Good luck and best wishes
RoN