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  1. #101
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    before i forget, i was thinking if hyd oil was primary way to move power around the STB tractor. and in that the connections between each section.

    there needs to be some hose to allow sections to "flex" between each section.

    and i want to say, it was a "fuel" connector. maybe LP gas noozle. were ya have trucks coming out and filling your tank. there was some sort of double or triple seal and then a good size handle you could actually get your hand around.

    if memory serves you just barely push on connection point. and the lever did all the rest. as in grabbing a hold of the other end, and then forcing a good solid seal. i want to say it reminded me of the "quick couplers" for hyd hoses on rear of tractors. but instead of a pull back ring. there was a handle to help pull back the ring. or something like...

    i was hoping to find some sort of train coupler. that did physical connection, but also wire and hyd connection. but with quick search i did not find any. more to the point. some sort of "funnel" or something to help guide things together. granted for a train everything is on tracks and limited amount things can move back and forth and up and down. but for the STB tractor i could easily see a farmer trying to connection 2 sections together and not be on perfect level ground. and just did not see any thing.

    ==================
    on another note, trying to think of some sort of "emergency brake" or just plain "brakes" for this machine. hydrostatic transmissions and electrical motors. right off hand i do not remember of any sort of brake system setup with them. and always brakes placed some place else. hhmmsss....

    ==================
    back to googling "tracks"......
    Ryan

  2. #102
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    ugly all the way around.... for tracks. they can really help reduce ground pressure. but they do not hold up well on hard surfaces like pavement, make it steel or rubber tracks... while most farmers most likely have a good a good portion of all there field work centered around a single location were things are moved back and for. there is still a good amount of miles placed on field tractors on roads....

    with above said, i would almost want regular street tires (truck tires) or like. be transport tires. for when the STB tractor is in transport mode. a few diagrams.... i tried to place tires to tracks to both all in a crammed up space... some thought was put to structural support but not much...

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea83-png

    ===========
    before i forget... was thinking of the current 8 wheel drive set.... and having 4 half axles.... i thought about turn things into 8 drive axles total. with each tire having a independent control for RPMs/torque/direction of turning. a drive shaft inside of another drive shaft.... the 360 joint. with the multi pipes going through the center of it.. is what spurred the idea. for a 8 independent wheel drive. per set of wheels.

    ============
    every tractor i saw that had tracks. used same frame from wheel version it looked like. and just having a hard time with this beyond. it saves cash and design. between wheeled and track version. along with parts... and looking at same thing.

    and at current thought. someone could take a rubber track. and get it made and/or the rims / tires made. to have a rubber track slide over 4 wheels per side. to get a tracked version of the STB tractor. with STB tractor have 2 axles per side, it really would not matter going from forward or reverse with rubber tracks on tires. the machine is setup for duels, so there would be a space between tires. to place the grove to keep tracks on the tires.

    and/or a farmer could put some sort of "tire implement" on one side of the machine. to help redistribute weight. and reduce pressure going to the ground...

    =============

    Mattracks | Models | Track-Tor-Assist | 8080 would be useful for driving STB in multi directions the back and front have some angle at the bottom to let tracts better drive up onto stuff.

    Mattracks | Models | 200 Series | 200M1-A1-SA

    LiteFoot Trail-R-Mates Specifications like better. larger wheels and the track itself does not have to bend as sharply around any of the sprockets or wheels that hold the track.. pictures of smaller size length tracts. which gave some interest. but shy away from for the SBT tractor.

    All Terrain Vehicle Track Systems - Right Track Systems Inc. if it has regular street tires on it, it seems from pictures they can put a rubber track on the machine or truck or what not... at first i really did shy away from this website, the tracks just looked ugly, no smaller rollers across the bottom of track. to help keep a more even ground pressure across the entire length and width of the track. and the tracks i would imagine gives more traction vs worry about ground pressure and in that compaction of the soil... *shrugs*

    ==============
    with everything said above... i would imagine there would be a STB version that comes with tracks vs wheels. there was some promising combo field mode track version and transport mode tire doings. but added cost... and maintenance of tracts. vs say a tire implement... i don't know. will have to make final judgement on some sort of full 3D mock up and seeing total weight of the STB per section... with above said think i am going to stay with current 8 wheel per set, setup.
    Ryan

  3. #103
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    been on youtube looking at bunch of different engines, motors, pumps, and the like... little daunting to say the least...

    getting past the 360 joint is the major draw back... every time another liquid needs to pass through it. it means adding more height above and below the 360 joint... the 360 joint is a major bottle neck...

    simplicity... would say.... run a diesel engine that ran a variable displacement pump that only pumped oil in one direction (did not reverse hyd oil) that way only a pressure line and return line and some wires would need to go down to each set of wheels. and then down past the 360 joint. using 4 way valves. to direct hyd oil into each hydrostatic transmissions. to change direction of way wheels turn.

    if i made things complex using a single diesel engine that ran a single variable displacement pump, that could also change direction of hyd oil (which way it pumped) it would mean... when a 360 turn was needed. the wheels would turn what ever way hyd oil direction was flowing... it would also mean running multi engines and keeping the pumps all going in correct direction... sounds way to much like a failure waiting to happen. were engines are running at the highest RPM's but computer is all gummed up. and causing 2 pumps to work against each other. vs actually turning wheels...

    what about a drive shaft that just went straight through the 360 joint. then doing 4 hydrostatic transmissions, with each having a hyd pump. errrr 4 pumps, 4 hydrostatic transmissions, 4 wheel sets. but then i would have to deal with cooling hyd oil and filtering below the 360 joint. and would not easily be able to connect multi engines together.

    ok what about diesel engine generator and going with 4 electrical motors, i would still most likely want some sort of hyd oil cooler / filter for the transmissions and coolers at bare min above the 360 joint. or would i need cooling? i could almost see a fire getting started, due to transmissions and/or electrical motors getting way to hot. and some sort of dried up plant / leaf going up in smoke, and catching rest of field on fire if there was no cooling done. though with electrical motors, it might be easier to just use antifreeze/water mix. vs hyd oil. and if needed water cool the gear box. not sure if i would rely on fins around electrical motors and gear box to dissipate heat. like heat sinks. to much garbage could rip the fins apart / bend them, and not really found of placing a fan near ground level to help get air around the fins / heat sinks. with that noted i would for sure would want some sort of liquid cooling... were hyd oil coolers or radiators could be placed above the 360 joint.

    hhmmsss never took things into account, but actual geared transmissions. or a high/low gear range selector. awe can not really use automatic shift transmission. let alone a manual. at 60 to 120 feet plus width of the STB (side train box) tractor. you will have wheels going at all different speeds and different torque ranges clear across the entire width when getting into turns going over hills and down into low spots... there needs to be a smooth transaction all the way across the entire width of machine and more so wheels putting power to the ground...

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea84-png

    ======
    one a side note. does the 360 joints actually need to be able to powered with a motor? vs just letting the wheels do the turn of the 360 joint... the STB is not an excavator were tracks/wheels stay stationary and the cab/engine/bucket do a 360 turn.... to dig more stuff up and dump spoils/dirt in another direction.

    on other hand... i could almost see a motor on 360 joint to help transfer power/weight from one side of the wheels to the other side of the wheels in a turn. though it would be very minor. and not sure if it would even worth while. exception to perhaps lock the transport wheels into a position for transporting. well then again. i could see, someone getting into a tuff situation trying to get the STB tractor into some location. were being able to turn the 360 joint with a motor would help. or perhaps for what ever reason. one set of wheels comes off the ground. momentarily in a field. (quick slope changes) and if no motor on the 360 joint the wheels could turn out of position and really mess things up. the problem would be trying to sync the motor on 360 joint up with the wheels underneath it... hhmmsss....
    Ryan

  4. #104
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea85-pngnot sure about the hinged wheel idea. but it would make things easy and getting away from 360 joint. the problem is gearing and everything that it would add.... or atleast what i am guessing off top of my head...

    as far as keeping 360 joint... and implements... i said STB (side train box) tractor never said it could not drive straight across the field at an angle.
    Ryan

  5. #105
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    electrical motors vs hydrostatic transmissions hhmmmsss....

    it one of the things that keep coming back to me. is say place 12 hydrostatic transmissions down in the transmission box. and place 3 hydrostatic transmissions per wheel set. and as torque is needed one or all 3 per hydrostatic transmission would turn on and start going.

    been looking at various swash plates setups...
    HOW IT WORKS with double pistons. and swash plate i am also liking. 3 cylinders and then a flip of switch and get all 6 cylinders moving and in that get more torque and/or RPMs or combo of both.

    tractors really due love torque to get them wheels or tracks to spin across the ground. and to drag implements through the ground. what power would be put to speed in a race car is transferred to torque for tractors...

    and been going back and forth between having single larger hydrostatic transmission per wheel sets, or going with multiple hydrostatic transmissions.

    i like idea of a double ended piston. for what ever reason. but i am not sure about RPM and a min amount that would be needed to obtain a nice smooth ride vs jerkiness coming from such a thing. i suppose more cylinders per side, and smaller size diameter and length of cylinders. might prove better for a better smoother ride.

    ========
    before i forget, if using a 4way valve below 360 joint. to change direction tires rotate with hydrostatic transmissions. the spool for the 4 way valve and lever for hydrostatic transmission. might be hooked up into same connection point. so only a single servo could be used...

    ========
    getting back to using larger hydrostatic transmissions to using multi smaller hydrostatic transmissions. i hate friction loss. more friction the more heat that gets created. any time a fluid has to make a sudden quick turn, or go through a small narrow passage, friction gets created. larger hydrostatic transmissions would i guess have larger areas going through the entire unit and in that less heat being created...

    electrical motors. is there a min amount of RPM's that they need to turn. to actually start moving without requiring extra electricity to keep them turning at very low RPM's. i could see a SBT (side train box) tractor have one end stationary and does not move from its spot, as the other end makes a very long 180 degree turn. the wheels near the end that does not move will need to barely move say a 1/16th of an inch a minute, while wheels on the far other end may be moving 5 to 25 MPH. and to keep everything straight across the entire width any were from 20 to 120 feet plus of tractor. those micro adjustments of how much a wheel turns would be needed. and the force / torque to keep the wheels from rolling away. vs going back into a rut, or wheels wanting to roll back down a hill.

    with an electrical motor. how do you "stall the motor" so it does not free spin, when no electricity is applied? i know there is some stiffness to electrical motors. but only way i could think they could work on STB tractor would be with combination of brakes. to point that brakes will be slightly applied while wheels get turned with an electrical motor. those brake pads or like would be fried up in no time....

    on other hand with hydrostatic transmissions. i would like to think some use of some valves. everything could be achieved. more so with a load sense setup on hydrostatic transmissions. were valves do not open up till system pressure (pressure from pump) meets the pressure on tires plus a predetermined extra PSI.

    hhmmsss... i suppose use of clutch plates and brake plates all rolled into one. you might get away with electrical motors. but still the wear and tear they would receive...

    a constant starting stopping electrical motors. would most likely put a huge strain on motors i would imagine. along with the electricity that it takes to initially start a motor would put some pretty good surges of power through the system. granted hydrostatic transmissions would also put a strain on things. though i would imagine a hyd accumulator or so could be placed into hyd oil circuit to reduce the spikes / sudden surges. for electrical i would imagine large size capacitors?!? (hope got term correctly been a while) i would imagine these capacitors would take some time to drain themselves of electricity when STB tractor was shut off, and things had to be worked on. requiring some sort of "by pass" around the capacitors... same thing with hyd accumulators, but with hyd accumulators. a quick valve could release all the built up pressure in multi hyd accumulators. vs capacitors if there were multi switches per multi set of capacitors across the entire STB tractor, any switch that went bad, still could put out high electricity out into the tractor...

    i just can not see use of generators being placed on STB as primary power. and using electrical motors to drive the wheels. it is not the cost aspect, but the maintenance and repair. that has me. and the safety aspect. of a short circuit and things going quickly wrong. with entire machine. vs hyd oil. ya there may be something that requires a STB tractor to completely be shut down and left in field. but one or a few hyd oil failures would not destroy the rest of the machine or rather multi components of the machine.

    well crud, *looks over at the breaker panel in the basement* had mind set of treating electricity like hyd oil. and not thinking about isolation ability of a breaker panel. and more so breakers able to trip at various settings... but still. i know wires get damaged, i know hyd fittings, hoses, etc.. get scratched up, dented, torn apart. and if it does not happen, you have not been in the seat of a tractor long enough.

    if ya dealing with 60 to 120 feet plus STB tractor. will you really be able to catch an oil leak? or let alone see it? once you drove a few feet let alone half way across the field when a warning light comes on? and see all the hyd oil spitting out... with electrical, problem would be isolated. and hopefully breaker trips... and would not be dumping gallons upon gallons of hyd oil onto the ground... or have hyd oil drips going all over the place. on other hand if wires get shorted out and breaker does not trip. hhmmsss....

    for tractors. there really is no need for "power savings" were electrical motors turn into alternators. and recharge a battery set / capaciters. when in field, with implement on the ground. i would imagine you would want all tires spinning and keeping the same torque placed on all tires. for a more even compaction (thinking less compaction). vs putting more torque on certain wheels and creating more compaction... the only time power savings would actually work would be when STB tractor is in transport mode going down the road and going down a hill. but with all the weight of a STB tractor and to keep things moving... i just do not see a "power savings" as useful.

    =================
    ok a hybrid setup.... mixing electrical motor and hydrostatic transmission. and having one generator and another engine running a hyd pump. seems like a large pain to try to keep electrical motor and hydrostatic transmission. working together and operating at same RPM's even when gearing and like all figured out. i suppose a RPM gauge on hydrostatic transmission shaft. and then RPM sensor on electrical motor shaft. and some sort of dimmer like switch used to adjust electrical motor amps might work. and perhaps doing same thing for hydrostatic transmission with 4 way valve. and adjust how much hyd oil goes to a hydrostatic transmission.

    i suppose running a hybrid setup, implements could be mix and matched to what ever suited the implement the best.

    =======
    side note, why do wires need to go through center of a 360 joint with a special fitting? turn the diameter of the 360 joint into into a special fitting. that would solve problem of getting wires out of a pipe... and resolve some of the bottle neck effect of a 360 joint.

    ======
    i would imagine there is a pretty hefty electrical need for a STB tractor, from all the sensors, switches, servos, and then night time driving, you no longer get away with lights concentrated around a single area. but spread out the entire width of the STB tractor 20 to 120 feet plus... a hybrid setup. might match that doing pretty good. it is either that, or all engines on the STB having an alternator. or installing a generator head, with a clutching between engine and generator head. so small generator could run electrical needs of STB tractor. while primary power is hyd fluid... hhmmsss that is another problem. electronics and generators, and making sure they get good clean power. vs ugly waves of power that could kill electronics in short order...

    a larger engine / generator would more likely make it worth while and save cost for putting out good clean power. and then remove need for alternators on all the engines...

    perhaps one primary diesel engine with hyd pump and generator head attached to it. then second engine would just be turned on an ran at what ever RPM's that are needed that the primary engine is not able to produce for hyd oil. and for backup. power connectors between sections could be used...

    ggrrr i need to break out of a small 20 section design. and start thinking 40, 60, 80, 120, 240, 360 feet plus widths for the STB (side train box) tractor. and include cab and non cab versions of sections. to get a better handle on things...
    Ryan

  6. #106
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    started to close out of bunch of tabs.... can came over the phrase "land trains" and search for "LeTourneau" and click over on images on google brought some inspiration.

    8X8 WHEELED AND MORE ARTICULATED VEHICLES, HEAVY

    below image from... Commercialmotor.com - Le Tourneau US Army Load Carrier... Now that's what I call a REAL big heavy hitter says Biglorryblog!


    54-wheel-drive: The LeTourneau electric arctic land trains that put Australian road trains to shame | Hemmings Blog: Classic and collectible cars and parts

    ============
    for my own reference hyd system design and spec'ing out what is what...
    Hydrostatic Drive Design

    ============

    getting back on track. before getting side track with land trains...

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea86-png

    looking back at the land trains. and websites, noting the land trains, all trailers followed in the exact same rut as the main front made. was inspiring. and most likely the STB would need to do. now if i could get things cut down so everything would be more "road" worthy vs taking up 1ish to 2 lanes of road.
    Ryan

  7. #107
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea87-png

    not going to draw it out. but some sort of "live stock gate / fence system" to create chutes to get live stock to various panels to into trailers. ya talking STB tractor that could be extremely long, why not.

    i don't know maybe a mobile dairy cow milking station on wheels. as the cows get moved to different pastures, so does the STB tractor and the milking station implements...

    perhaps some sort of convery belts or auger or something. were ya back the STB up to some grain bin. and start filling it with ton of grain, using convery belts / auger or something. to move the grain down the entire STB tractor. then drive it out to a given pasture or lot were cattle are. and just let live stock eat right from the sides of the STB tractor....hhmmsss there would need to be some sort of grain chopper or stirrier (do not remember name, been to long)

    window row racks, to cutters to that make windrows as they cut... why not. get the cutter out in front. and rack in back. and keep min amount of wheels going over the crop. and smashing it into the ground. perhaps something down with the cuters. to help direct the cut crop out of the drive path of the wheels...

    been thinking about round bailers and square bailers. being able to possibly make a thicker taller window row for a round bailer. and making attaching points on rear of STB tractor to connect multi round bails.

    perhaps some sort of convery belt on rear of STB. and square bailer on front. or perhaps special section that makes the the square bales and then send bails out onto the convery belt. all the bails feed out to some bail stacker or manual labor loading trailers.....

    perhaps just cutting hay or like and putting it onto conver belt. then were ever nessesry feed it up a chute and into a wagon or semi truck or some such....

    with the abilty for the 2pt connections on each short end of a section able to bolt / un bolt. perhaps being able to redo those areas some to accept a special section. between 2 powered sections. i don't know...

    perhaps the ends of a corn or bean field get combined out with a short width section of STB tractor. to help let things dry out or what not. and then bring in the STB tractor fully loaded 160, 240, 360 plus feet width. into the field. and drop some sort of long chute, auger, or something. that allows tractors pulling wagons behind STB. to make a quick run between middle of field and to edge of field and get grain loaded up into semi trucks / trailers out on the road. so trucks not made for fields will not compact the living day lights out the soil and/or get stuck int he field....

    =============
    just not there yet for implements. i need to get my mind wrapped around. 60 to 120 to 250 to 360 feet plus widths. i am still thinking current age tractors.... need something that will actually take advantage of the huge width...

    if i go with hyd pumps. i do not think there would be much problems hooking multi hyd pumps up to the same main hyd line. and diesel engines and the connected hyd pumps will turn on as needed. so you can have one huge monster of a beast tractor that will go through everything, and then let the engines start shutting off as implements and field work requires less and less HP without effecting things...
    Ryan

  8. #108
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    looking back at the "LeTourneau" land train. perhaps spiting the power sections up, to insert "wagons" in between the wagons. or heck even flat bed wagons. and placing 2 axles on each wagon. and a motor that allows front and rear axle on wagon to be turned. so you could have a "land train" wagon setup. for grain to round bails. to other... the wagons would only work in transport mode for STB tractor. but...

    being able to pull a STB tractor setup in wagon / land train mode. to pull wagons when in the fields harvesting crops... and then just pulling the wagons back to the farm. to deal with how ever the crop is dealt with for storage until it goes to market...

    perhaps a round bailer setup. were STB is angled and wheels turn to go straight down the field. and putting a "round bailer" between power sections. of the STB. and round bails instead of rolling out onto the ground. just roll back onto a flat bed wagon... hmmsss do not know about that.... field would have to be pretty level and windrows just right for that to work....

    perhaps STB just goes down field wind rowing the crop. and putting on an elevator or conveyer belt. that all feed to a special section. that makes round or square bails. and just drops them in the field. were later on a auto pickup machine could be used, to pickup all the bails down a single line. vs driving all over the field trying to pickup up bails here and there and almost in a random order... argh... crop drying in the windrows....hhmmss then again rain and wet crop...

    manure spreader?!? i still remember it, and see medium size crew and tractors. one tractor loading the manure into manure spreaders. once full the person on the given tractor goes to the field. and about that time another tractor shows up ready to get another load of manure...

    if STB tractor was put into transport mode. could it drive down the length of the live stock lot, and as needed move forward / reverse as special made wagons / manure spreaders got loaded... and once full... the STB tractor goes out to the field and just flings the manure were needed... but how would it? just not fully seeing it happen.

    ============
    if the STB tractor had a "open" area or space were something could be mounted under neath the powered sections and between the wheels....how would that help with various tasks a STB tractor might see.... is there need for a different wheel setup to allow better "space" between the sections...or rather between the wheels on each section....

    instead of centering the wheels under the 20 foot section. 4 wheels to one side, and another 4 wheels on the other end. leaving room in the center of the 20 foot section? hhmms... that conversion between field mode to transport mode...hhhmmsss...

    time to relook back at the wheels one more time...
    Ryan

  9. #109
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea88-png

    been thinking of a equal lateral triangle. (same angles same lengths on all sides/angles) a triangle hooks up to end of one section. and some sort of "quick hitch" connection on the other section. and hoses / wires run in through the middle of the triangle.

    figure 3 hyd cylinders.... 3 cylinders should give a complete range of motion.
    or perhaps going with 2 hyd cylinders, and the bottom link, being a solid bar.

    video camera at end of each section... to help align things up?!? perhaps not right on the end of each section. but perhaps a camera mounted up high. and can rotate. so farmer from cab. can rotate camera to either hook up implements on each side of the STB tractor. but also help in hooking up implements and sections on the short ends of the STB tractor....

    trying to get multi sections hooked up on a regular basis. would most likely be a huge pain in rear. and get rather frustrating. repositioning the STB. figure if you used a triangle setup with 3 hyd cylinders. a farmer in the cab. could adjust things (tilt, extend/contract) twist almost the other end of traingle. and make connections. without having everything perfectly ligned up to connect. once connected. they hyd cylinders would contract pulling everything inline...

    also figure hyd cylinders. would allow a STB tractor in transport mode. to make sharper turns per section. as the link between sections could stretch (cylinders extend) leaving more clearance between each section...

    other words... in field mode you are going to want implements when folded out and down. to go through the field side by side, with really no gap between things to get the entire field tilled, planted, harvested.

    but when in transport mode. how do you extend things so when you turn, you do not bang edge corners of each section or edges of implements into each other... ((how many have turn to sharply backing up a trailer and smeared the rear end of truck with the trailer. due to trailer jack knifing?)) same like thing would happen with STB tractor in transport mode. if the link between 2 sections is not long enough.

    ============
    when looking at train links. between each unit... i just did not like them. closed fist light connection. does make a good connection. but you would still most likely want some sort of cylinders to help connect sections together. from cab of tractor.... unlike a train on tracks were everything at a preset grade / slope. out in real world there just to many hills and changing in slopes... that the STB tractor would most likely need a greater difference in grade/slope than a train in tracks could tolerate... and in that what train links could tolerate.... example get out in the field and wanting to connect something up... and you are fighting ruts and ditches.
    Ryan

  10. #110
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea89-png

    hhhmsss... i think a weight distribution system might be good for this setup. and move wheels on short ends back and forth between the short ends. would have to see spacing on a top view grid. to see if multi cylinders and 3 rods between short end could provide a track to shift both sets of wheels back and forth...
    Ryan

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