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  1. #251
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    gave up on multi gear "gear motor". to much space being taken up by the gears.

    +++
    picture info
    +++
    before giving up, drew up one manifold plate. to hold "check valves" to deal with "suction" (negative psi), and max PSI. only drew one of the 2 up. and inserted 12 of them. if i did not give up. would of went back and redone the neg and max PSI check valves. to make everything into a smaller package. also would of finished the "valve" manifold. 6 gear ratios built into it. just needed something to physically turn it. was running out of space of were i wanted to place wet discs. and partial reason of giving up multi gear "gear motor" setup.

    i did setup some were plates. (orange in color) that fitted up against the valve. but was not really happy in how the groves were made for were the wear plates fitted.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-4-png


    ================
    ================
    quickly built a generic hyd axial motor. and added total of 3 rings. that could allow any were from 1.5 cubic inches up to 30 to 42 cubic inches of displacement per full single rotation. and allowed up to 7 gear ratios. pending on which of the 3 rings of cylinders/pistons/rods were fed hyd oil. able to reach about 70mph at 50 GPM,

    tempted to press upwards of 100gpm, but internal diameter of hoses that would run from main frame of SSTT down to hyd motor and all the passage ways. would cut 3000PSI coming from main hyd pump on SSTT down to about 1500PSI. using 0.5" inch hose. 1" might allow upwards of 100GPM but still friction loss of hyd oil. running through pipes be nailing things.

    i bounced back and forth way to many times between excel and autodesk. trying to figure out how to maximize amount of cylinders, to reach smallest diameter, and largest cubic inches displaced per full revolution. and just never came up with anything meaningful. a good portion was limitation. of physical length a piston/rod could be made, and diameter of it. my thoughts are diameter of piston/rod need to be smaller than the length of the piston rod. or i would end up with piston wanting to flip upside down on me. i was already reaching enough inches. that i reasonably assumed i would quickly go over 12" width tire. forcing me to go up with smaller diameter cylinders / pistons / rods. ended up massing way to many pieces.

    +++
    picture info
    +++
    nothing special. was hoping to get 3 swash plates or rather 3 rings, that each had a single hump. but never got that far.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-3-png


    ==============
    ==============
    gave up on above fairly quickly. when idea of some locking gears. came to mind, that might prove more promising. and operate much like "disc brakes" you find on your regular car / truck. 12" outside diameter 11" inside diameter. teeth 1" tall, with max separation of 1.75" inches. gives approx 26 cubic inches per full revolution. and applying brakes if you will, will decrease down to 0 cubic inches per revolution.

    +++
    picture info
    +++

    -boggen-sstt-redo-5-png

    the "lite blue" and "dark blue" for outside the 2 gears. i'am still debating about. at moment it resembles a generic "gear motor" or "gear pump" casing around the gears. but that may change fairly quickly.

    hhmmsss squirrel cage fan, i suppose kinda of a turbine setup.

    why not. off set the teeth angle. from center, to a different angle. it would reduce amount of teeth possibly. hhmmss more internal leakage *big frown* but. would it provide better overall torque in low end RPMs as in creeper gears, and higher top MPH? hhmmsss. what about dead stop, and moving.

    still need to figure out, how to apply forward / reverse. and how to deal with inlets/outlets. let alone figure out were to place springs, and how to get everything to work
    Ryan

  2. #252
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    -boggen-sstt-redo-6-png

    trying to grasp how to set the "teeth" or blades up.

    360 degrees / 72 = 5 degrees per arc for picture
    31 teeth bottom gear / blade
    31 teeth upper gear / blade

    12" outside diameter
    11" inside diameter

    48" squared (area) per top of each tooth or between each tooth. (not counting for tolerance)

    34.558" squared (area) total ((multiplied distance between top of tooth and bottom of groove)) for total cubic inches

    ===================
    ===================
    ===================

    some assumptions....

    A would work better, to have "inlet/s" and "outlet/s" on both inside, or outside of the ring gears. i doubt there would a huge difference on placement, might have harder time to predict hyd motor spins in correct direction, when at a complete stop. and then trying to move in forward or reverse.

    B through F. inlet/s on inside, outlet/s on outside forward, and then inlet/s on outside, outlet/s on inside for reverse. would most likely be wanted. to help insure the hyd motor begins to spin in the correct direction.

    A through F.
    --A would more likely give higher RPM's and less torque
    --F would more likely give lower RPM's and less torque.
    --other words, distance hyd oil would have to travel. it would take hyd oil longer to travel through F vs A.
    --other words, there would be more side wall area on each tooth for F vs A (see picture length) and in idea, instead of having a 1" diameter cylinder bore size for A, it gives a 3.317" diameter cylinder bore size.
    --gggrrrr, my brain says above is true and false. and that it does not matter RPM's and Torque will stay the same, regardless. if using same GPM of hyd oil and same PSI of hyd oil going into the hyd motor.

    amount of teeth / blades.
    --more teeth / blades = more internal leakage. = less efficient
    --more teeth / blades = higher RPM's hyd oil is going to be at a "pulse" between gaps between teeth /blades. that might give more "friction loss" and in that being less efficient at higher RPM's
    --more teeth / blades = lower RPM's or rather at a complete stop and then going forward or reverse. i would think would give more initial breaking force.
    --would assume type of metal gears are made from, will predict how many teeth are possible. harder the metal is, the more teeth. minus some teeth for "calculated life span" of the gears/blade edges.

    ===================
    ===================
    ===================

    A = 48" area, 1.000" long, 180.0 degrees
    B = 48" area, 1.067" long, 157.5 degrees
    C = 48" area, 1.312" long, 135.0 degrees
    D = 48" area, 1.916" long, 112.5 degrees
    E = 48" area, 3.317" long, 090.0 degrees
    F = 96" area, 3.317" long, 090.0 degrees

    F= 2 E's side by side, in attempt to thicken up metal. on the inside diameter of the ring gears.

    ===================
    ===================
    ===================

    -boggen-sstt-redo-7-png

    i am having a hard time, with "curved" teeth/blades.
    --more difficult to machine. vs a straight cut like above
    --they would work awesome in one direction (forward), but i would assume produce a huge amount of internal leakage. when hyd motor was put into (reverse), due to hyd fluid would be channeled not into the groves of the teeth/blades. but by channeled more towards the outside. forcing more hyd oil to by pass the teeth / blades all together.

    even with modified edges, not so sure about the pulsation of hyd fluid constantly changing direction. with the over all 2 gears/blades meshing together. to allow for a variable displacement motor. the constant pulsing, i would imagine add up some friction loss. reducing how many PSI of hyd oil goes to torque. more so at higher RPMs.
    Ryan

  3. #253
    Super Star Member murphy1244's Avatar
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    come up for air.
    Murph ------------

  4. #254
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    Quote Originally Posted by murphy1244 View Post
    come up for air.
    when ya having fun, time fly's by. not much else to say.

    ===========
    ===========

    *rubs chin* next problem...

    starting to sink in better, of ways, to build a gear shifting. from previous attempts...

    but one of the major problems, has been, making sure the hyd motor / wheel turns in correct direction. with that, need to figure out a way to create a one way clutch, like bicycle peddle clutch. but will need 2 of these clutches, and pending on were hyd oil is pushed for forward or reverse of hyd motor/wheel. it will need to engage or dis-engage these clutches or mechanisms.

    right side, quick 2D sketch, of some sort of flapper, that has springs? and some sort of hyd oil line. that feeds from the main hyd valve feeding the hyd motor. to determind direction flapper moves.

    other problem once wheel starts rotating, the clutch or flapper needs to "move away" so it is not constantly trying to lock the wheel up.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-8-png
    Ryan

  5. #255
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    and just as my head hit the pillow last night. hopefully some comprehension hit me.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-9-png

    going with "curved" teeth / blades, like attached picture. allows me, to have "gear ratios" per say.

    total teeth 46 (23 bottom gear, 23 top gear) each tooth is a gear.

    180 degress minus a couple degrees. to deal with splitting up, inlet and outlet say 178 degrees.
    without counting going to say 21 gear ratios possible. by having....
    forward = inlet on the inside of the ring, and outlet on outside of the ring.
    reverse = inlet on the outside of ring, and outlet on inside of the ring.

    180 degrees minus a couple degrees, need to deal with a single half circle.
    well no... not limited to 180 degrees. if i did a 2 or more triangle shaped.
    but i still would be limited to half of total teeth, or rather amount of teeth on a single gear.
    --odd number teeth = minus 1 then divided by 2.
    --even number teeth = divided by 2

    46 teeth total so 23 gear ratios.

    ===============
    need some sort of gear, or linkages, or something that operates with springs, and a single throttle cable (example push mower throttle cable) or by springs alone. if throttle cable was used. it would allow an electronic servo motor or some such, to adjust things. vs relying directly on springs that give up there strength over time.

    need some sort of "band spring" that rolls and looks like a roll of duct tape. actually... a good old "tape measure" would work perfectly.

    problem i would need 2 independent tape measures. one for forward one for reverse.
    well no i take that back. still need 2 independent tape measures, but that could be linked together. actually they would need to be linked together. well no. that would cause one of them to want to "blow away" from the ring. if both pulled out for forward or reverse at the same time.

    if i do the tape measures, i might be able to go with a "squirrel cage" fan. type of blade setup. na, might loose a good amount of torque. due to internal leakage. but, it might allow for more teeth/blades, and larger gear ratio bah, comparing apples to oranges.

    back to autodesk to see if i can get something drawn up. getting way to many ideas, and not enough proof of concept. starting to get closer to a fluid turbine! YES! *smiles*
    Ryan

  6. #256
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    first rough draft.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-10-png

    a generic piece of metal say 1/16" thick. 2.75 inch tall. that is coiled up 6 times.
    (bottom plate .5", teeth height 1", teeth height 1", top plate .5", with .25" teeth meshing together)

    1 guide roller. to put the band of sheet metal up against the ports
    1 start/end guide, that rotates around about 350 degrees.

    1 to 21 gear ratios.
    a gear = path hyd oil takes from the inside to the outside through the teeth within the 2 gears/blades. and more importantly hyd oil is in parallel and flows through these passage ways at exact same rate and amount of hyd oil.
    23 teeth per gear/blade. not possible to reach a full 23 gear ratios. due to some space needed, to deal with the sheet metal band rollers and guides.

    gears
    outside diameter = 12 inches
    inside diameter = 9 inches
    path traveled (example how far a piston/rod in a gas engine might travel up and down) =
    1.076 inches squared * .75 = 0.807 cubic inches for a single gear or path
    0.807 cubic inches * 21 gears = 16.947 total cubic inches for all gears.
    but surface area...and length, not sure what numbers would be needed. so surface area and length, could be computed to compare to a generic piston rod diameter and length the piston rod travels.

    having doubts at moment, never tinkered with anything like this. ya i have taken a "box floor fan" that is say 16" square, with 15" diameter fan blade inside of it, to cool off in summer, and unplugged it, and taken a garden hose to it, to clean the blades off from build up of muck and dust. and got the blades to spin, and have taken a computer case fan, and submerged it under water, and put a garden hose up a near the blades to get them to spin. but never a squirrel cage fan, and more to it using some sort of band, to select were fluid runs through certain blades.

    the concept of "curved" passage ways, to make the passage way hyd oil has to take through the 2 gears longer, not completely sure of. i want to think, it would create a higher torque values, from a dead stop and getting things rotating. but still not sure about that. i want to say only thing that is going to actually make the numbers talk, is the location were hyd oil "enters" and then "exits" the 2 ring gears. that surface area. that contact area. between the gears and the inlet/outlet manifolds.
    Ryan

  7. #257
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    spent a day, trying to deal with a curved path, only to realize, that i was going about the path or rather make that a grove, wrong. hopefully this better spiraled grove, will work out much better.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-11-png

    though now i need to figure out how to, create something like a "chain saw" chain. but instead of a cutting edge of teeth, there will be curved edge, that seals up 1 of the 23 groves for gear ratios on the inside.

    though now after typing last paragraph up. not sure if a chain with grooved path is wanted. perhaps i need a way to move 22 valves out and away. other words think of an out door garden hose faucet, but instead of twisting a handle to open / close, a metal band. that is perhaps twisted and coiled into the center, the more twisting and tighter the band gets, the more valves get opened up.

    see how the chain idea works out first i guess. same idea as above. but instead of chain slide out of the way. the chain in above idea is built directly into things. less moving parts. less grinding and sticking problems than a chain would give. problem is can i get band to twist and coil back into a spiral enough. hhmmsss...
    Ryan

  8. #258
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    and away i kick the spiral away from me.

    never felt like completing a spiral band spring, do-hickey, just do not think it would ever pay off, to much trouble trying to predict the band tension long haul, and in that if the 24 valves would be open/closed.

    spiral pattern, is nice for a spring that is coiled up. but does seem to be happening for me. to much trouble. and from what i can tell no benefits.

    =================
    below pic....

    forgot to add springs, into the 24 inner valve plates. and did not finish out the valve plates out the outer race way.
    *cries mercy* need to go back in and add bolts/nuts, and bearings. time to head back to autodesk, for another full redraw.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-12-png

    the grooved path. some some roller like bearing wheels. i am hoping, will pull the valve plates away, and then hold the valve plates X distance away, till the grooved path is rotated in opposite direction, were combination of grooved path and spring, help seat the valve plate.

    still trying wondering what i am going to do with valve plates, and inside diameter of ring they push up against, i have a rectangular slot to cover. but would be nice to obtain a "circluar" shape. or cone or something. to better ensure valve plate seats. and help reduce hyd oil leakage.
    Ryan

  9. #259
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    and, now i am back to square 1, ok maybe not step 1.

    just not enough space.

    pic info....
    quick rough made tire, 24" diameter, 2" depth treads, 4" side wall, = 12" diameter i have to play with.
    12" width minus 1.5" on each side, for tire bead. gives 9"
    others words 12" diameter x 9" long cylinder....

    -boggen-sstt-redo-13-png

    ===============
    i would like to stay with the turbine like setup with blades/teeth. but not sure how to set things up now. before had a picture in my mind of brakes, and frame connection, and half way idea of how things would fit up to tire. but now...

    at moment 13.7 inches, and by time i get a case around things most likely 15" inches in diameter. also at current moment only 2.5 inches thick. thinking of turning blades 90 degrees. so the valves get turned 90 degrees. should help me reduce things back down to say 11 inches in diameter, by 6 inches or so thick.

    but how do i add brakes into the mix. 11" diameter minus 2" radius, giving 9" diameter left. i guess that would give me enough space to cram in some wet brakes. problem is, is there enough space left in the center, to run wires, hydraulics, physical frame support through center, and to other side of things that would rotate with the wheel.

    man, just relying on some bolts or a large nut over axle. to hold 2 sides together, and all the forces pushing things away. either brakes are going to need to come off the rim / tire connection. or perhaps some sort of planetary gear setup. to run brakes in the center, so i can get bolts closer to the outside diameter.

    ok instead of coming off the outside diameter, and center of the turbine blade, perhaps pancaking, things, and off setting, rim connection a couple inches. and coming off a central axle. vs a circular connection couple inches off of dead center.

    ==========
    on different note, tempted to convert all the valves, over to electrical over hydraulics. instead of using 2 small size electrical motors. to twist a lever that opens / closes the valves. just not to keen of putting that many electronic devices, that close to the ground, were things are getting bumped and banged around.
    Ryan

  10. #260
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    grown tired of mechanical linkages, i may not be a pro at them by no means, but just way to many limitations with them at least for what i have came up with so far. and looking at electric to control each valve individually.

    ==========

    -boggen-sstt-redo-13-png

    been tearing up autodesk, with a bunch of generic 2D sketches and limited extrusions. to see how much "room" i had for either small little DC motors, or DC solenoids.

    DC motors. i have for most part gave up on. even with reduction gears. to convert RPM's to more torque, to move things. i just became skiddish of all the rotation and parts. more so when considering up to 48 valves and in that 48 small size DC motors, per hyd wheel.

    DC solenoids. is yes and no. i am afraid if i went with straight connection from solenoid to the valve. to move it, that the valve would end up bouncing and vibrating all over the place. so tried a couple designs, of solenoids operating a small size hyd valve, and then small size hyd valve, operating the physical valve. ((other words reduction gear)) to obtain higher torque or force to push/pull the valve open/close. this has been a pain in rump, trying to squeeze things down, to a min amount of space. and still have not achieved what i would like.

    my last, internet search, has been on "rotatory solenoids" i might be able to use a small size cylinder shaped ball valve, and "rotatory solenoid". to obtain just what i want. i need at moment i want to say 80 to 90 degree rotation. to go from full open, to full close. i do not think there should be that much force needed. to turn the valve, exception expansion/contraction of metals. and possibly causing amount of torque needed to go up. has me worried there. the other issue, is "pressure shocks" against a valve that is in the closed position.

    ================
    some other issues, been keeping with idea of wanting a "solid ring" that would hold all the solenoids. or 2 half circles. and i am a little uneasy, after remembering of different materials, contract / expand at different amounts and at different rates.
    --i am not to thrilled about having 25 wires per side, (1 pos common, and 24 neg) or (48 total), not counting wires that run back up to the sstt. and a solid ring or 2 half rings, would really, help reduce "space" wires took up. that or going with a 1 or up to 3 layer circuit board.

    another issue, is reducing overall amount of electricity is needed, at moment here is 24 solenoids per side, for total of 48 solenoids. i was wanting to put a spring in each solenoid to either have them normally always open or normally always closed. but this would either cause for MAX RPM's to require the most electricty, or MAX Torque to require the most electricity.
    --with above said, i think i am going to do half/half. or rather i should say, every other solenoid will be normally open and the others will be normally closed, and same thing for opposite side, if aligned correctly each side, this should reduce, max electricity needed, by half, for majority of all gear ratios.

    ===========
    gear ratios... or rather what valve is open or closed.

    mechanical linkages i have came up so far, would basically act like a "wedge" of pressure to split the case open in half due to order of valves open and closing. going with electrical solenoids, should allow pressure to be even out around the entire case. the exception highest gear ratio that allows for MAX RPMs.

    for even pressure, i am thinking of even sided polygons. or shapes, example triangle, square, pentagram, octagon, all the way up to 24 valves being either open or closed. the points of the polygon = valves, and should help allow for more even pressure across the entire hyd motor.

    ============
    pure amount of solenoids per hyd motor, times all the hyd motors... = a few hundred solenoids.

    i am thinking of a "diagnostic" or rather make that a "maintenance" computer self test. that takes readings from RPM sensor, torque sensor, hyd oil pressure sensors, and applies and does not apply breaks. and goes through each solenoid, opening and closing each one. and see if it is operating. example if valve is suppose to be open and wheel is up in the air and not contacting anything, but wheel does not spin up to a certain RPM, valve is most likely bad. so the diagnostic / maintenance program, sends a command, to chip that controls that set of solenoids, that that solenoid is bad. the chip, will then work around that chip for gear ratios of opening / closing other valves. pending if valve is stuck either in open or closed or part way. i would like to think the computer chip would be able to adjust things accordingly.

    figure, 1 solenoid going bad, is a warning, but "low on priority", half dozen solenoids on the same side on other hand is RED light. something is wrong, and puts warning message up to operator.

    ===========
    alright, getting there....

    --48 blades on the turbine.
    --24 solenoids per side. (total 48)
    --computer chip per side for each set of solenoids.
    --4 way hyd proportional valve. ((primary valve)) (forward, reverse, neutral, braking) combined with the 48 secondary solenoid valves.
    --primary computer chip for hyd motor
    --RPM sensor

    --Pressure gauge, on inlet side ( coming from main hyd pump on SSTT))
    --Pressure gauge, on outlet side (going back to main hyd pump on SSTT))
    --pressure gauge, side A (going to left side of hyd pump)
    --pressure gauge, side B (going to right side of hyd pump)

    --temperature gauge.

    --brakes
    --80 psi pressurized air (emergency brake and/or parking brake)
    --electric over hydraulic most likely solenoid, to apply brakes.

    --unknown brake sensor

    ==================
    the 4 pressure gauges, should give me a way, to calculate "pressure drop" and estimate with caculation of GPM of hyd oil. along with estimated torque.

    if i can roughly estimate GPM both flowing in and out of the hyd motor. i should be able to through a very ugly "red warning" message to operator, that might state "hydraulic oil leak" and stop the machine possibly.

    the 4 pressure gauges, should allow me, to control what gear ratio, or rather how many solenoid valves to open / close. and how much to adjust the proportional valve. per hyd motor.

    ====================
    tempted to toss away the 4 way proportional valve, and go with TWO 3 way valves. for backup purpose, and perhaps better finite control. both in adjusting RPMs and torque, put perhaps braking as well. also "load balancing" between multiple hyd motors.

    load balancing, sold me on TWO 3 way valves. i would like to think it would give me almost double the range in adjusting everything for load balancing,
    i should be able to use same amount of pressure sensors, if i place them in a proper place.

    ==========
    temperature gauge, not sure will be useful or not. beyond adding cost.

    i could see some issues were certain hyd motors say being nearest to the ends of the SSTT. needing more torque or higher RPM's for turns, and might become warmer. thinking with use of the TWO 3 way proportional valves, and 48 solenoid valves. that some extra GPM of hyd oil could go through these warmer hyd motors. to help aid in additional cooling.

    if things are not warmed up yet at specific hyd motor, then perhaps, causing extra solenoid valves to be closed, causing more friction of hyd oil, more friction = more heat = help warm up the hyd oil quicker. might be useful for transport wheels that will most likely be operating majority of the time, vs hyd motors on field on wheels or tracks. that would be lifted off the ground during transportation.

    ================
    brakes....

    wet discs. (friction discs sat directly into the hyd oil)

    not sure if i want to use a pressure sensor, or a distance sensor, or something else (have no clue what else) to determined if brakes are applied and by how much. going to need to look at "rotational torque sensors" better. not liking idea of "slamming on the brakes" type of thing to happen. or rather more specifically hitting the brakes a tad quickly. as stuff goes sliding off seats and onto the floor of the truck/car.

    =================
    =================
    =================
    still might be able to reach me goals for space! *big grin* just hope i can keep the weight down.

    for a couple hours spent some time thinking about, how folks can add "wheel weights" to rims of tractor tires. but modifying the weights, so they act like a "fly wheel" with a clutch. so the weight (fly wheel) rotates along with tire, to help rotate the tire at a more constant RPM's

    also thought about, adding an extra cover over hyd motor casing onto one side. and some how, pump air in, to remove weight, and then let air be pumped out, filling this extra cover with hyd oil to add weight. the idea never got that far, one mixing air with hyd oil, not real ken on. and also not sure it would be worth it. (limited amount of space, or make that volume) hyd oil could fill up. those few extra gallons most likely would never be seen. or make things worth while. vs just adding an actual metal weight to the tire rim / hyd motor.
    Ryan

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