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  1. #261
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    not much of an update, holidays, have had the best of me so far.

    i am moving away from hydraulic motors. and looking more and more at electrical wheel motors.

    the last turbine gear setup just does not work, there is need for fluid movement, and the turbine blade/gear just is not doing what i want it. one of them i locked onto idea, and would not let it go. and hoping i might find away to make it work. by the time i get all the valves worked out, i might as well be looking directly at electrical motor. and skip hyd fluid all together. though, i am still not counting hyd motor completely out. or rather i should make that a hybrid hyd / electrical motor out.

    the more i try to use a hyd motor inside the rim of a wheel, the more i am wanting to walk away from them. reasons.... i want to turn into a "control freak" MAHAHAH!!! but seriously, i want as much micro management control possible, in controlling torque, and RPMs of a wheel. at both slow and high MPH (miles per hour) and also wanting high initial starting force (dead stop, and getting things moving)

    i am wanting micro management, of how fast a tire spins, not in a complete revolution, but each degree (as in 360 degrees). along with how much torque is applied. per each degree of a revolution. the thought is the more control and more so how fast the control can be achieved. the less compaction, and more traction a agriculture tire could achieve. but catch there is, the more teeth of a gear or rather the more magnets and coils/windings/phases there is, the better. and in that, i am willing to sacrifice, complexity, and efficiency of a electrical motor. for better fine tuned control of torque and RPM per more degrees of control.

    other words. many of us been there done that. we be going along plowing snow, or out in the lawn on wet grass on a hill or going through a wet spot on a riding lawn mower or tractor. and wheels begin to slip and spin. i am wanting. to be able to measure, torque being applied, and the RPM's of the tire. and let a computer chip. say HEY. this wheel is starting to slip. lets slightly lower RPM's, or this tire has went down into a hole, and needs to speed up some in RPM's over length of the hole, and just a little bit more torque as wheel comes up and out of the hole / dip in the ground.

    as an agricultural tire, R1 or like tire, has large "lugs" or deep tread patterns. once the treads fill up with dirt moving through loose soil. and pressure (from weight of vehicle or tractor) is applied to compact as much dirt up into the treads of tire. you end up at a place, of how much (not sure of the word) hhmmss how much the dirt will stick to other dirt near it. before dirt begins to slide, i suppose i should say molecules of the dirt will slide. and in that cause a tire to "slip" or "spin" within the dirt / mud. while every so slightly and most likely not noticeable to naked eye, that slippage = loss of physical traction. In that, i want ability, to pickup and sense that very small slippage, and as fast as possible adjust RPM's and torque of the wheel. to keep slippage down to a min. if high speed motion video was used. i would imagine a agricultural tractor tire, look like it is "stuttering" as it goes through a field that is going through patches of hard compacted dirt, to loose muddy patches. were the wheel is quickly speeding up, and then almost stopping as it senses a wheel slippage, and tire slows down.

    the issue is, the stuttering, will more likely end up be a "vibration" vs a a smooth motion. with hyd motors with no gear or with gear, is sensors and then length of time between changing a valve position to accommodate wheel slippage. and if there is just a little bit of air mixed into the hyd oil. response time is further lengthen. and more likely cause more wheel slippage to happen.

    if i go with an electrical motor. with more windings, magnets, etc...i reduce amount of moveable parts that would wear down over time vs hyd motor, in that more likely obtaining a longer life of higher efficiency, of dealing with wheel slippage with electrical motors. response time, between sensor, to changing a RPM's and torque, is only limited by computer chip speed, and length/size of wires, electricity must flow through.

    the problem going all electric, is response rate will go higher, but there still will be some "stuttering" / "vibration" if i rely directly on a computer chip. to send electricity to windings / coils in the electrical motor. and in that limited to current age technology of computer chips, in how fast they are to compute information. factors that will always be there. is length and size of wires used and amount of volts/amps/watts used. closer i can get computer chip to windings the better for wheel slippage.

    ====================
    side tracking.....
    been hitting some generic online websites that go over electrical and magnets and electrical motors. been to many years to remember generic A/C and D/C courses from collage. so far not real happy of what i have came across yet. so far they all focus on general trouble shooting and maintenance, and not actually building an electrical motor. as in volts/amps/watts, wire size, amount of times a wire loops around, force of a magnet, air gap, etc... granted i know there will be limit for me, when it gets to point of elements of periodic table and what is what for materials. but was hoping to at least get over the basics, of general equations and notations.

    with above said, the info i have picked up. most use larger magnets on either inside or outside, and then opposite for windings / coils of wire with smaller magnets. but been thinking more about. controlling magnetic forces on everything. other words. so far, all i been seeing, is magnet forces, being applied directly across from each other. were electricity flows from inside to the outside, or vice vs. i am more looking at were electricity could flow in either direction. or rather make that, control electronic magnets in how strong they are on inside (on shaft) or on the outer casing. i guess, kinda of like a variable speed motor. but i want to adjust RPMs and torque on the fly.

    thoughts of a *duh* forget term, of train that runs on magnets. were forces constantly change. along with speeds constantly change.

    ==========================
    side track again....
    hit me this morning, of using what is that new stuff "carbon fiber" or what ever it is. for some components for the SSTT. yes it is suppose to be lighter than various metals and stronger in certain aspects. and for traction weight is king, but carbon fiber main frame / body, and then pumping say anti freeze / water mixture through things, to act as dynamic weight perhaps. other words smaller frame in areas might prove much better. and then for make up of weight loss. adding in some sort of fluid that could be pumped back and forth between some containers on the SSTT and implements.

    ==========================
    off to google. to see if i can find some books, or online collage course that i can go at my own pace, or youtube. going over electricity and magnets and more so electrical motors.
    Ryan

  2. #262
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    skim reading through some "previews" on google books. and wondering, why i have not seen, more of a circuit board design electrical wheel motors. i keep seeing large magnets and windings / coils of wire. and i have yet to read or see, anything, were the circuity is built into a hosing / casing of the motor. along with rotate/shaft of a motor. i would imagine magnetic forces that get created to spin a motor itself causes problems, with circuity. but, the routing of wires has me. with so many things having multi layers or lamenting like doings, from insulators to conductors, to computer motherboards/circuit boards, to dipped / bath / spray / painted / laser on or like treatments. is the old age. of using a drill bit, or lathe, or chop saw, or like machining still so caught up in peoples mind. that it is un-thinkable about doing something else? i would imagine cost has a big factor.

    i am also having a hard time, with using the entire diameter of the shaft. for the inner magnets or coils/windings. were magnetic force, and/or electrons travel from one side to the other side. during each rotation, and more specifically during each partial rotation of phases. (hope i got correct term there)

    =============
    shaped electrical magnets, 1 inner ring, 1 outer ring.

    for inner ring. not sure if a more solid mass magnetic metal. shaped in a circle. and just enough holes for a shaft and bolt holes, and bearings. or going with a "laminated" circuit board in idea. so north and south poles. can be aligned on opposite sides of the inner ring. other words instead of magnetizing entire inner ring (disc i should say). try to keep magnetic forces through the center down to a min. but perhaps just having a torus shape (donut) shaped ring. might serve better for a electrical wheel motor. i only need to move the poles of the inner shaft, 360 degrees. the ring itself only needs to be of magnetic properties, and not the center of it.

    ok how does one "print" coils of wire, at same time some sort of insulator. more to the point, i would think there would need to be 2 "3D printers" or like things. one to add stuff to inside of a ring, and another to add stuff to outside of a disc. errr bad terms, inside of a say 10" to 16" pipe that is 1/2" to 10" inches long. and then do stuff on outside of a pipe.

    hhhmmsss. then again.

    ==================
    not enough time at moment for autodesk, but starting to picture, regular gear, that you might find in a transmission of a vehicle or tractor. but the actual teeth, are not actually metal. but the magnetic force of multiple magnets. the top tip of a tooth would be north pole. and lower part between 2 teeth would be south pole. if working with different wave patterns of electrical singles, sine, square, rhombus, A/C current, D/C current. i think a A/C sine wave might work. changing the single / wave pattern, changes the tooth pattern. instead of having 100 teeth, you could have 10 teeth, and anything in between.

    the only issue i am having now, is i am not picturing in my mind yet, how these teeth engage each other. between the outside of a pipe vs inside of a pipe.

    i do see 100's, if not millions to billions, or more of miniature electric magnets, lining the inside of one pipe, and then same but lining outside of another pipe. one pipe slides into another.

    thoughts of explanation come from. a surfer on a surfboard riding a wave in the ocean, or magnetic levitation train. but "skipping" the levitation perhaps.

    *rubs chin* how do you determine "magnetic force" tooth shape. if all you have is the "air gap" between the larger pipe, and inner pipe. magnetic force, is not 2D tooth on a gear but 3D shape.

    if these 100's to billions of miniature electrical magnets were setup much like breakers in a breaker/fuse panel. you find in everyone homes. and then some sort of control wire. not sure about that. having a central, computer chip. were all these miniature electric magnets wires run back to. am hoping to run all these miniture electrical magnets in parallel with each other. and then some sort of "serialized" command structure.

    define things better. the 100's to billions of miniature electrical magnets. would line the 2 pipes, in a grid pattern.
    if going with a spreadsheet type definitions of rows and columns.....
    a column = cells (magnets) that goes from end to end of pipe.
    a row = cells (magnets) that form a ring around the circumference, on inside of larger pipe, and circumference on outside of the smaller pipe.

    each row would have its own serialized command structure, and each column would have its own serialized command structure. a computer chip. could then say A1,b2,c3,d4,e5, etc... are on, then 1 micro second later.... a2,b3,c4,d5,e6 is on. or computer chip could change the pattern to.... A1,b1,c1,d1,e1 are on, then 1 micro second later a2,b2,c2,d2,e2 is on. perhaps more torque is needed, so.... a1:a10, b1:b10, c1:c10, d1:10, E1:e10 is on. or what ever some sort of equation/s are used to determine. what is on/off. and then rotate things.

    simple circuit setup for on/off for each miniature electric magnet, been trying to picture a A/C single pattern happening but just not seeing it. a D/C pattern on other hand. might serve spreadsheet like function better. were micro volts. hhhmmsss...

    it would be nice to run multi layers. much like a motherboard / circuit board. were there are multi layers of insulator material, and on each layer conductor material that forms a ring. and then each electric magnet connections connected to each layer of there respective ring of conductor material. ok lost train of thought, after trying to figure out how to explain.

    still not able to remember last train of thought, so on to something else....

    column of magnets. how fast each column turns on/off determines RPM's (revolutions per minute). without running 100's of wires back to a central computer chip some place. is there a way, to put simple logic of a sensor and on/off switch to control each column and/or each and every single miniature electric magnet. that is based on some wave pattern of an electrical single or magnetic force? when the wheel hits a bump or something that requires more torque. i do not want a single traveling clear back to a central computer chip then back to turn a given set of extra magnets on. i would prefer, that there be almost a direct cause of volts going up to get a higher magnet force, and once a max limit reached, next set of magnets turn on. to help produce extra torque. and volts slowly going up on this second set of magnets till limit is reached, and if more torque is needed, going on to 3rd set of magnets, and so on and so forth. so in the end there could be 10's to 100's of columns of magnets on at the same time. to provide enough torque to turn the wheel. and as torque is decreased columns of magnets begin to turn off.

    in earlier notation, i noted magnetic forces, in forms of 3D teeth. but do i want a as many teeth as there are miniature electrical magnets 100s to billions of little magnetic teeth. or is there a way. to add another layer of logic, to above "column of magnets" to combine the forces of 2 or more miniature magnet teeth together. to form larger magnetic teeth. ok if a1 and a2 were turn on, being there side by side, would form a single larger tooth. but if A1 = on, A2 = off, A3 = on. there would be 2 small magnetic teeth. ok now add in volts and amps into the equation. and pending on volts and amps might have how many magnets that could be turned on in a row that create either bunch of small teeth or a larger single magnetic tooth. and that it may require more "off" magnets one after each other, for a cut off point for beginning and ending of larger magnetic teeth that may get formed.

    hhhmmmss A/C sine wave, vs D/C wave. north and south poles. getting way to complicated. and not even sure if magnetic forces, would be high enough, to even pull something off. time to draw some things up, to get things in better perspective on things, and figure out the equations behind it all.
    Ryan

  3. #263
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    been jumping back and forth here and there, as i read over some google searches for electrical motors.

    i am tired of seeing "3-phase", and 50 and/or 60khz.

    ==================
    i am having a hard time with how coils of wire are placed into motor parts. from the DIY'er to higher up companies that i have seen on youtube. as in they build the coil outside and then, push it down into slots. to me, this seems like it would create a "wobble effect" of exact center of the magnetic south or north poles.

    i would have thought i would have seen better "threading" techniques employed by now. that coil wire directly into the motor parts. "old age" weaving machines for carpet making and like, meats new age electrical motors.

    every time i look at coils even on newer electrical motors. i rarely see a nice clean job of wrapping of the windings. i thought goal was to try and maximize amount of turns around a core. and at same time ensure the core produces the max amount of "flux lines" but if the magnetic south pole or magnetic north pole are in constant state of wobbling. due to core is not at saturation point. *i just do not understand* why not more care is taken into building the coils. so a more even concentration of flux goes into the core. and ensure a better and quicker point of saturation of the core.

    the other issue i am having, is wire of coils overlapping and going in different directions and in that canceling out any net benefit, of nearing saturation point of the core magnetic.

    seriously, how hard is it to put in some insulation. and then build a sewing machine in idea. that goes up and down. but slightly rotates. back and forth as wire is coiled directly into the motor housing. and being able to get wires to line up nice and smooth against each other. for each layer.

    i see all these nice shops with all the fancy hardware, kept nice and clean, and precision control devices. but then i see coils once inserted, flapping all over the place. and wires criss crossing. *i just do not understand i guess*

    ======================
    i am also having a hard time with the ends of coils in induction motors. and use of insulation between coils. and how things are then "sewed" / wrapped together. to keep things form moving. i would think there is something lacking there. and improvement could be made there. to help re-enforce the ends of of magnetic flux. then again. just some newbie...

    =============
    having a hard time with the lack there of, of fluid dynamics, or rather the air gap, that is inside the motor. higher RPM's = more friction loss. more friction = more heat being generated. that air in that gap just does not sit there and is motionless. it spins, and creates mutli little air currents. these air currents build up a force that needs to be over come by the motor. if anything the air currents i would imagine while extremely small little eddy wind currents, create possibly some sort of movement on wires and magnets.

    =====================
    i did come across "worlds most powerful magnet" video on youtube. were there was a magnetic core, then coil, then another magnet that slide over the coil, then another coil, and then another magnet. so on and so fourth. that reduced the physical size of the magnet. but still allowed for amplified magnetic forces to happen.

    i am actually interested in concept of amplified magnetic fields. if it meant i could, produce a stronger electromagnet in same amount of space. just wondering if pay off from using generic cheap core magnet cores. would show any benefit. past saturation point of the core. of if a magnetic core, coil, magnetic core around coil. would allow for quicker saturation points. but take up same amount of space or reduced space.

    ==============
    i am also curious in the "flat metal" spirals / coil. that was shown in the video of the "words strongest magnet" vs using regular copper wire in shape of a cylinder. if i could get more turns with flat wire, and have much wider range of voltage that could be used. vs generic regular copper wire or like wire coils.

    the video showed sheets of insulation being placed in. between discs of flat sheets of metal. that formed a coil. with flat sheet coil, it would be fairly easy, to create flat sheet of coil with no insulation on it. then create same exact coil but with an insulatator material. and slide the 2 coils together.

    flat sheet coil = a kids toy "slinky"
    1 slinky = copper or like, 1 slinky = insulator material. and just slide them together. to create an insulated flat sheet coil.

    ====================
    i am having a hard time with all the old explanation of electrical magnets and 2D representations i have been seeing. were is the 3D version... and explanation...

    ====================
    i am also having a hard time with only control 3 phases, on the inside or outside. but control both magnetic strengths on the rotor and stator. i would assume being able to finely tune magnetic flux on both sides. would produce a better finite control on initially starting a motor with load on it. and then being able to fine tune torque and RPM's through out the torque and RPM limits of the motor. if not changing the graph of power used, frequency used, torque amount, and RPM's.

    and to add to it, the phases that the the motor uses. everyone wants to keep simple hookup, and keep the motor control computer chip not very complex. but the whole idea of a motor control computer chip. is to allow complex operations. i just do not understand i guess.

    ==========
    i guess i am expected to see more computer controlled setups. were we has humans, build machines, that mass produce smaller machines.

    al'righty then, newbie, back at googling to learn more about magnetic fields. hopefully be able to come across some examples of shape of magnetic, compared to fields it produces.
    Ryan

  4. #264
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    flat coil creation.... been trying to think of ways to actually make it....

    i am pretty sure i can not rely on a drill bit or router bit. to drill into end of a pipe to make the coil. slightest dull blade, or imperfection, would most likely damage the coil. and create a bunch of waste.

    i thought about using a lathe. and having a computer controlled tool slowly move across a pipe or like. but i am a dummy when it comes to laser cutting metal. more so when i will most likely want something as thin as possible. perhaps down into the 1/16 of an inch to 1/50 of an inch thickness. perhaps even thinner than that. for how thick the flat metal coil is.

    i thought about injection molding. but i am unsure about this idea. again talking 1/16" to 1/50" thickness. if not thinner. and at that thickness, would a mold be able to hold up to any sort of pressure during the injection process. before destroying the mold.

    i thought about some sort of way to bring metal up to liquid form. perhaps kinda like soldering. and just heating up end of a rod of metal. and as the laser melts the metal. using a funnel and computer controlled machine. that slowly spins. some sort of "mold former" that has a built in magnet that helps control thickness. perhaps enclosing entire thing into a pressure container. so density of the liquid metal. maintains higher densities. or perhaps some sort of vibration applied to machine to help reduce any sort of air bubbles or impurities. i don't so out of my league at this point.

    the goal is to create or machine or build, the coil. at exact spacing or close to as possible. so when finished there is no need to compress, or extend the coil. so that there is little to no "rippling" effects. within the metal coil.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-14-png

    ==================
    the same thing goes for the flat sheet coil, that would become insulator. between the turns of the metal coil.

    the insulator coil, i would think be much easier to produce. due to temperatures would be less, along with possibly pressure needed for say an injection mold machine.

    i suppose if flat sheet coil was produced first. then coil could be placed into some sort of "nut" for lack of better words. to hold each turn at wanted distance. and then, entire coil dipped into some sort of liquid insulator. and then pulled out to let dry / harden. but i would imagine problems would range from not being able to predict full penetration of the insulation in middle of the flat sheet turns. result = short circuiting coil.

    if insulator coil was made just like the metal coil. the 2 coils would easily slip together. forming a single solid coil. and only the outside diameter and inside diameter. would need insulator shape of a pipe. to full insulate the flat sheet metal wire coil.

    ====================
    another issue with flat sheet metal coils. is not wanting a perfect circle / pipe shape coil. but oval shape coils. or even square shape coils. any type of physical machining process, (drilling, cutting, lathe, etc...) would most likely create a good amount of waste, but more to the point. extremely hard to maintain thickness wanted, without destroying the coil.
    Ryan

  5. #265
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    and the 3rd post of today....

    -boggen-sstt-redo-15-png

    this was quickly created a week or so ago. and never got around to posting it. needless to say, this idea, will most likely get scrapped.....

    72 magnets per row for outside ring.
    6 rows
    total of 432 magnets

    i did not do math for the inner ring of magnets. but in reality there would be less per row. but in attempt to quickly see it, 72 magnets per row, 6 rows, for total of 432 magnets on inner ring.

    magnets if memory serves me are 1/2" long, by .3 or .5 inches in diameter.

    the goal of this motor. was looking at creating magnetic teeth, much like teeth on regular gears. but in this case the teeth are invisible magnetic teeth. and use of either DC or AC current. at different frequencies, at different volts. would either enlarge or reduce the teeth on both rings, different phases would act like "transmissions" and change gear ratios. different patterns of what magnets turn on/off would also act as different gearing per say.

    thought was to build a circuit board directly into A and D ring. main purpose of circuit board was routing of wires / currents. and install a resister here, a little switch there, but then run what would be needed back to a central computer chip.

    =============
    with above, i am severely lacking on concept i guess of old age electrical motors. and in that how magnetic fields errr flux is dealt with. and how it causes either rotation in a motor or produce of electricity in a generator / alternator.

    i am still assuming the most flux lines or what was it termed "atomic current lines" come out of north and south pole. vs laying magnetic on its side, and dealing with flux lines between the north and south pole. but the shape of the eletrco magnet, and coil around the given shape. is tossing me through a loop still. i need some better 3D representations to better grasp magnetic fields and shapes and coils.

    ============
    ============
    ============
    this was also done sometime last week, below was an attempt to better visualize different multi phases.
    it took a old video back in mid 1900's on youtube, that went over DC and AC generators. for the light bulb in my head to turn on, to better understand electrical phases.

    -boggen-sstt-redo-16-png

    while 3 phases are sounding good. i am still stuck on wanting more phases. it is getting past the 360 joint (rotatory joint). that allows rotation of the wheels, for turning. and then getting over a second 360 joint, if i want to control all magnets, that will most likely make or break more than 3 phases. of actual running electrical wire, to each electrical motor.

    more phases = less volts per wire = smaller size wire. but more smaller size wires. there is still going to need to be some sort of brushes or like needed to get through 360 joints (rotatory joints). less volts and less amps. less likely sparks would happen. *growns* thinking back to years ago, and having one them kids race tracks. were cars or even trains ran on couple small wires protruding from a track and watching the sparks fly. those sparks have me worried, more so when SSTT (sideway snake train tractor), would most likely need to be classified, as needing explosion proof connections. due to all the chemicals that go with farming. but if i drop volts and amps down lower, and perhaps go with larger brushes, i might be able to reduce sparks down to very min amount. *DOH* just do not know.
    Ryan

  6. #266
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    on a search for....

    --software dealing with magnets and coils and showing various aspects in 3D.
    --a PCB (programmable circuit board) that allows for PCB to be made in shape of a pipe.
    --how to "coil" wire / path ways, during creation of a PCB or microchip creation, to create electric magnet.

    ===========
    looking for information for "solid state" circuitry, that could be put into a PCB, to cancel out hopefully magnetic forces. at same time resist vibrations and shocks, an electrical wheel hub motor might see.

    been slowly digging into "old age" micro chips, and how they were made 5 to 20 years ago. and see if anything might be useful there, for PCB. i do need current age micro chip technology, but perhaps a few years old or older.

    looking at some DIY PCB boards on youtube, and use of light, various liquids, various sheets of material during process of PCB boards and computer chips for that matter. and thinking it might be possible for pipe shape PCB board. just not sure about multi layer PCB and routing pathways / wires through a given layer to another.

    some extra things that caught my eye, is hall array *hope i got correct term* were north pole points..... right, up, left, down, right, up, left, down.... repeats
    Ryan

  7. #267
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    Ryan today was looking at NASA Class room on t.v. since to cool to be outside.
    They were showing a concept design of a mobile hauler that looked like a spider . thought of your design of elec. driven wheels and able to move in any direction or crawl onto flat bed trailer for hauling.
    could haul a school bus.
    go over rough ground or level while keeping its platform level.
    Might dig around for the info. and watch to get some ideas .
    Keep thinking Edison did with a lot of others brains for picking.
    ken

  8. #268
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    i need to find a software that deals with PCB (programmable circuit boards) preferably something that can handle a 3D shape....
    a software package that can model / simulate 3D magnetic fields / flux / lines.

    ==================

    past week, been searching and reading, and then scribbling in autodesk inventor. and not making much head way. to many statements of "oh this will do this awesome!" but does not actual give specs behind it. or "this type of motor is normally used for this or that only", then do not branch out to cover larger HP (horse power) motors.

    way to many motors are "air cooled" by a fan or heat sink fins, and not directly cooled via water/antifreeze or like liquid cooling.

    magnets and coils, and shapes for explanation on internet are extremely basic shapes. and do not get much past that. granted some excellent stuff out there for "teaching/learning" but does not get much past the basics.

    i am getting errrieeee of what i might expect from 3D modeling software that can simulate magnetic flux / magnetic flux lines. and more to the point how a program might calculate the magnets strength and then show it. granted i have not directly went through any equations out there yet. but i am noticing a "difference" in pictures folks have displayed on the internet.

    ====================
    as far as electrical wheel hub motors for the SSTT. i have went through this list a few times, trying to narrow things down, but for what ever reason the list gets longer. so one more time from scratch...

    there is no order to any of this, it is more of a brain storming session in attempt to narrow down and attempt to give me better idea of what i want/need. of a wheel hub motor and tire setup.

    1--coolant fluid (water/antifreeze) is required. prefer fluid is routed through rotor and stator to reduce overall heat better, vs just tossing on a water jacket around pump.

    2--sending power to both rotor and stator. instead of just relying on permanent magnets on rotor or stator, and then the other getting electric magnets. going with electric magnets on both rotor and stator.

    3--i am jumping back and forth of using "brushes" or going with basically a mini generator. to get power between rotor and stator. though not completely sure on using coils and magnets it is more of no attempts yet made to draw things out and think of circuitry needed to pull things off.

    4--emergency brakes / parking brakes, using most likely friction discs, some were along line read something about being able to use antifreeze/water mixture instead of oil possibly to cool the brake friction discs. thought honestly do not remember the fluid type.

    5--was thinking of electrical actuator for applying brakes, with air pressure for "emergency braking" and fail safe braking.

    6--seriously looking at, say 60 to 85 MPH top speed for a 24" diameter wheel. but reality if i can get 40 MPH i would be happy without use of any gears, min top speed of say 25 MPH, would be acceptable but higher the better.

    7--on the low end of MPH. "creeper gear" in sense of barely inching across the ground. along with initial stating torque needed from a dead stop. would like to be extremely high. and no need to achieve to certain RPM's to obtain enough torque to get the wheels to loose traction. were tires would be given the highest chance of maintaining traction.

    8--wanting "force feed back" built into circuitry / computer chip control per each wheel motor. to speed up / slow down each and every motor / wheel as it moves over rough ground (bumps and like) to reduce vibration and shocks and at same time hopefully compaction, and achieve a higher traction ability.

    9--fault tolerance, as in 4 plus phases feeding a electrical motor. so if one wire has problems feeding to electrical motor the other wires feeding it, should be able to keep motor going, but at reduced ability.

    10--regenerative braking. or rather turning electrical motor into a generator, and using magnetic forces to act like a brake. though i am not real big on "huge batter" arrays for SSTT.

    11--looking at regular combustion like engine. (gas, diesel, or like fuel) that runs a generator head. and it all fits up on the SSTT.

    12--i am wanting to stay away from mechanical gearing as much as possible. and stay with direct drive. of a wheel. meaning no direct gear changing taken place between electrical motors RPM and tire RPM's.

    13--re-hitting back on force feed back, no cameras, or external sensors can be used in the force feed back to control extremely small increases or decreases of RPM's to get over bumps. exception being GPS or like location information. and sensors built into circuits / computer chip to identify differences in magnetic forces or volts and amps or like.

    14--i would like to achieve highest possible incremental adjustments to force feed back. if 360 degrees if a full rotation, then 0.001 degrees or much greater (as in 0.000001 degrees) in incremental adjustments in degrees of rotation per second would be wanted.

    15--looking at idea of use of magnetic bearings, with a backup of regular mechanical bearings (ball bearings and like), though i am not completely confident there would be enough space to add individual magnets / coils to achieve this. and more looking at using individual magnets/coils built into rotor and stator, to produce RPMs and torque and at same time perhaps act as a magnetic bearing. i am more interested in magnetic bearings, to perhaps allow higher RPM's without destroying regular bearings, to... possibly allow for a cushion for rough ground. though the overall vibrations of such doings i am still un-easy about.

    16--i been trying best in scribbles of autodesk inventor to try and reduce overall sizes of things. but i do believe i am still in mind frame of "electrical cars" type of mind trying to reduce weight at each wheel. vs more of a mind frame for tractors. were weight is being placed low creating low COG (center of gravity), and weight of motor would act like filling of tires with a fluid.

    17--re-hitting back on cooling of motor with water/antifreeze like fluid, and to the point, the magnets and coils will be in direct contact of the rim or rather i should state the magnets and coils and circuitry will form the rim the tire fixes to. this direct path, will cause heat to go into the air that is inside the tire. ((air heats up, it expands, if air is in enclosed space, air pressure goes up)), ((if the same air cools, it reduces its volume, and if in an enclosed space, air pressure drops)), because of this, i am seriously considering, running an "secondary air pump" (first air pump = air to emergency brakes), that can be used to put air into all tires. and controlled via values. were valves are located up on the SSTT and an air hose is ran down to each tire.

    18--going with above, considering placing a "backup valve" near air stem for each tire/tube. on each air stem. to act as a backup, but also, reduce air pressure shocks and vibrations, going back through all the air hose between air stem and valves up on the SSTT. other words a lot of seals air would need to pass through, and wanting to try and reduce things that would wear them seals out. and reduce internal leakage of air. ALSO, placing air valve down low, should allow for some sort of way to "purge" moisture / water build up. that should collect in lowest areas in the system (near tire stem valves).

    19--for the water/antifreeze mixture of fluid for cooling the electrical motors. the valving i am considering just placing up on the SSTT. and no valving at each electrical motor. air bubbles would collect in highest area, and purging air should be easier to do up on the SSTT. and placing valves up on SSTT for coolant fluid should free up some much needed space for electrical motor and brakes at each tire.

    20--i am seriously considering a PCB (programmable circuit board) and computer chip per wheel hub electrical motor. but i am more interested in a hybrid PCB and computer chip. were there are more individual computer chips built directly into a PCB. and then perhaps a master computer chip, for master functions, and sending / receiving singles, to computer up on the SSTT.

    21--magnetic shielding for PCB and computer chips, the small amount i have found on internet. should be fairly easy to implement.

    22--if i am reading info i found on internet, solid state switches, diodes (check valves for electricty) and other doings, are not effected by magnetic forces directly, but wiring is. this should help reduce magnetic interference of the PCB and computer chips, and at same time bring up life span of everything.

    23--major issue of PCB and computer chips is heat, along with electrical motor itself. if ya anyway a computer geek, and built your own computer from scratch and individual components. then ya should be familiar with heat sinks, heat sinks with fans, and have idea of water cooling. and in that i am thinking of possibly running "coolant lines / passage ways", across PCB and computer chips, as well through magnets and coils of wire. the problem is there may need to be easily replaced valves to control direction and amount of were coolant fluid flows. and insuring PCB and computer chips can withstand a higher amount of "max temperature"

    24--i have consider the possibility of using the "tire itself" as a radiator, or rather operating kinda like a radiant heating in a floor, were water is heated up and sent through pipes / hoses that are placed into the floor. but in this case the electrical motor and computer chips would heat the coolant fluid, that would then, be pumped in between say 2 tire tubes, that had passage ways built in between them, that would route the water through the tube. and let heat be expelled through tires themselves. the issue being this would require, ability to change air tire pressure on the fly, so tire maintains proper air pressure for a given situation. also the tire material (rubber) would need to withstand a certain temperature.

    25--i have also consider possibility of just mounting an air fan or 2, inside of the tire, fixed to the outside diameter of the rim. to simply help circulate air inside the tire. to help dissipate heat. (remember that rim of tire, will actually be part of the electrical motor (magnets / coils)

    26--i am not real keen on filling tires up with a fluid, or less tires can be completely filled up with a fluid an zero air inside the tire, or air amount kept to extreme min amount. if water is sloshing around inside tire, that sloshing = vibrations, vibrations = compaction of soil, vibrations could also possibly = less traction. if tires are filled up completely with fluid, then perhaps doing same thing as 25, but to circulate the fluid in the tire, to provide better cooling of electrical motor.

    27--this remark is due to filling tires up with fluid an adding more weight, due to so much weight at each wheel hub motor. the wanting of a high degree of force feed back. is an attempt to both control and remove vibrations coming from the electrical motor, and the tire simply rolling over the ground.

    28--i am not real keen on making a complete electrical tractor. were only energy source or primary source of power is from batteries. tractors run way to long at a single length of time. and charging of batteries would cause to much time, and keep farmers out of fields the few days of the year that might be termed the best days to be out in a field to plant or harvest a crop. with that, i am not to keen on regenerative braking. were trying to store the electricity created, by using electrical motors to cause SSTT to slow down and come to a stop. and storing that electricity in massive amounts of batteries. with that. i am more interested in basically electrical heaters position some place up on the SSTT. that can be used to help use up electricity created during braking. my only issue with this, is to much heat, and tons of dust that is flammable, and suddenly turning the SSTT into a fire ball going through field or down the road. on other hand weight of batteries might serve as an added bonus to obtain weight for the SSTT, to obtain better traction. ((ending here for now, due to wanting to focus more on wheel hub motors))

    29--unknown at this point between, single to multi pancake motors, to A/C or D/C electricity, to induction motors, to other types of terms folks have placed on electrical motors. what i have seen so far. seems more than anything, marketing departments over the years, have placed terms on things. along with way in attempt to classify how motors are built. (looks agitated) and anything that is different is called a hybrid. vs just stating numbers and calculations or simulated or actual test results.

    30--having some issues of using a 24" diameter 12" wide tire and the support structure that attaches wheel hub motor and tire to the SSTT. i want as much clearance as possible. so tires can sink further down into mud. before things start dragging on the ground. and then needing room to run multi hoses and wires down to each wheel hub motor and tire. with that i am been considering a "caster wheel" support structure possibly. were there is a support structure on each side of the tire. thinking is, i could route what would be needed to "rotor" on one side, then what would be needed for wires/hoses to "stator" on the other side. and using the angle style bracket of a "caster wheel" to help maintain structural support. and in that considering possibility of going with a larger width tire or ability to change widths of tires. and at same time perhaps, once tire width gets X amount wider, being able to double up electrical motors inside of the tire or like. granted this would dramatically change how tires attach to the SSTT and what tire options there would be for the SSTT.

    31--PCB (programmable circuit board) if i can print stuff out using an inject printer, then i should be able to create pipe shaped PCB boards with ease. to allow for better integration of PCB and coils and sensors and controls built directly into the electrical motor. the major issue is if someone fails, it may mean motor itself is junk. due to no real way to easily repair something. more so with the tightly integration of coolant hoses / passage ways, coils, magnets, etc...

    32--re-hitting on type of electrical motor used for the wheel hub motor. if i get term correct "cogging" or rather how fast phases rotate around the rotor or stator and how fast the other (stator / rotor) tries to speed up / slow down as it meats each phase. the cogging effect would be in idea the "force feed back" and trying to eliminate cogging as much as possible. at same time controlling phases for a controlled speed up or slow down of cogging.

    33--at one time i wanted to include an air pump and coolant fluid pump built directly into the wheel hub motor and tire. but extra space required for the pumps including valving, vs placing a large more beefer air pump and coolant fluid pump up on the SSTT won out. the con is extra wires / hoses that would need to be ran between SSTT main body and down to each wheel hub motor / tire. most of placing larger beefer coolant motor up on the SST main body, has to do with heat and guaranteeing amount of cooling could happen at each wheel hub motor. and for the air pump, insuring that air can be obtained and pushed into a tire, or let out of a tire. (if tire is down in mud/water, what would prevent mud/water being pumped into tire. hence placing air pump up on SSTT, were main body would for sure be above the water / mud.

    34--see if i hit on everything....
    --coolant for electrical motor, coolant for braking, coolant for PCB (programable circuit boards), coolant for computer chips, coolant inside tires, coolant up on SSTT
    --friction disc brakes with electrical engage, with comprssed air for emergency brake / parking brake, cooling of braking.
    --changing air pressure in tires, along with valve locations,
    --force feed back, and degree of force feed back abilty, torque, RPM's, MPH.
    --sending power to both rotor and stator of the wheel hub motor. multi phases of power, with backup phases of power
    --trying to reduce vibrations, via force feed back / cogging.
    --placing of air and coolant pumps and roating of air and coolant lines.

    =================
    =================
    =================
    seals for coolant fluid and air *ughs* this alone most likely going to make or brake the overall wants / doings above. seals will need to withstand large shock forces, high pressures, high temperatures, and also handle low shocks, low pressures, and low temperatures. along with high/low RPM's. (revolutions per minute)

    seals will also need to be able to handle any sort of external pressures. this also extends to gaskets and 0-rings and like doings.

    a simple bolt going through multi layers could have a dramatic effect on everything and how seals are used.

    =============

    the strength of materials used, and G forces and shock loads and vibrations along with how much a given material type expands / contracts with heating, could be limiting factor on top RPM's.

    with above, looking more at getting away from the more common "cutting, drilling, sanding, etc..." to shape metals and materials, and more towards other ways of manufacturing, that might provide a higher level of compaction. and along them lines, getting away from idea of simply repairing or replacing a single item / component, with more towards replacing a larger piece containing multi items/components.

    =================

    have gotten extremely lazy, posting links / pictures from sites i have found that had good info. below just some random links.

    Magnetic Levitation Train 1
    Halbach demystified л MyOwnHybrid
    LaunchPoint Technologies Announces New High Efficiency, High Power Density, Halbach Array Electric Motor
    Miniaturized Halbach magnet array (B.Sc./M.Sc.) — Imteksimulation


    long boring links i never really read through yet.
    http://myownhybrid.files.wordpress.c...a-flywheel.pdf


    starts at about 3.00 minutes. A/C going through coil with iron bar in middle. then a metal ring, that is wrapped many times with wire around it. and placing it over, causes light bulb to light up.
    Faraday's Law - YouTube
    so can i use this simple setup to power all coils on both rotor and stator of an electrical motor. so i can more directly change magnetic forces that are producing RPM's and torque. and when using electric motor as a generator, to cause braking action of wheel. will this allow more accurate braking response.

    ===========
    to lazy at moment to go through all my scribbles of last week, in autodesk inventor and post them to this thread. to much learning and trying to comprehend vs anything. may wait post 280 comes around to post scribbles of pictures/diagrams.
    Ryan

  9. #269
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
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    Location
    Trivoli, IL
    Tractor
    SSTT (Sideways Snake Tain Tractor) and STB (sideways train box) tractor, dirt harvester

    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    3rd post of today, counting ken's post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Ryan today was looking at NASA Class room on t.v. since to cool to be outside.
    They were showing a concept design of a mobile hauler that looked like a spider . thought of your design of elec. driven wheels and able to move in any direction or crawl onto flat bed trailer for hauling.
    could haul a school bus.
    go over rough ground or level while keeping its platform level.
    Might dig around for the info. and watch to get some ideas .
    Keep thinking Edison did with a lot of others brains for picking.
    ken
    hopefully i got the spider ya talking about below?

    picture is from...
    The Week in Pictures | Sept. 13-19, 2010 - Framework - Photos and Video - Visual Storytelling from the Los Angeles Times

    pretty interesting little critter, nice use of all the joints, almost looks like it is built for "rock climbing" or forestry work and getting around logs and ditches and ravines. and more to the point, it looks like all the legs/wheels fold up into a compact package. never really thought about legs folding up into another leg. *smiles happily*

    picture is from....
    NASA - Mars Science Lab: The Challenge of Complexity

    not really happy with the small size support structure and more so the joints. i think it would be way to flimsy. on other hand. there are 4 sets of wheels, 2 individual wheels, and then 2 sets of 2 wheels. the 2 sets of 2 wheels has me more along of think of "rubber tracks" and ability to fold things away for transport.

    pictures from...
    Photo Essay: My Summer at JPL - JPL Education - NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory


    looks cool! but having hard time with motor torque motor rpms, and then lifting capacity of all the joints, and shock loading and vibration. and then time to get a task done. a task on another planet could take days or months, a farm tractor is down to hours perhaps minutes even.

    picture from....
    New NASA Lunar Rover л All Things News

    starting to look more like SSTT i had in mind.... as far as wheels are setup.

    picture from....
    Tires Kicked on the New NASA Rover "Moon Buggy"

    really do not care for the low "profile" support structure that the tires connect to. but...

    picture from....
    First look at the NASA Mars Curiosity Rover |Doobybrain.com

    has some other close up pictures of various things of the rovor

    picture from....NASA Rover: Athlete | Photo 02 | NowPublic Photo Archives

    now this looks like something! nice beefy supports. going to assume nice size electrical motors in the joints. looks like the entire rim of the wheels is used up with electrical motor.

    =============
    in my last previous post. i noted about converting over to a "caster wheel" design structure that holds the wheel and hub motor to the SSTT. to both reduce size of support structure and to run hoses and wires to both stator and rotor of the electrical motor. vs only using a single side mounting point and try and route the hoses and wires to and from both rotor and stator of electrical motor. i think i am going to pretty head strong staying with a caster wheel design or like design style.

    i am just not so sure about the "multi joints" of the spider vehicle. it would surely allow for tires to go down deep into mud and get them out of the mud, but the need to just keep on going through mud, vs stopping, and letting machine walk out of mud, i don't know. caster wheel design, structure support for wheels, brings up a different designs for everything. that i really never got much into with exception for "tracks" vs tires. and even then i really did not get much into it for transport wheels. hhmmsss....

    over past week, there been a few different moments were frustration was setting in, and thought about, having the SSTT just roll up on a flat bed trailer, for transportation. but was hoping to avoid need for a trailer. with exception of perhaps transporting new equipment clear across the US / around the world (kinda of a 1 time transportation thing).

    ==================
    thanks again ken! keep a posting!
    Ryan

  10. #270
    Veteran Member
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    North Central Arkansas
    Tractor
    John Deere 4520,

    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    Ryan you got the pictures I was watching. when stuck in mud could raise out the wheel shake the mud off like a dog and continue moving.
    Thought this would give you a few ideas of the concept.
    enjoy reading really would like to see a prototype.
    ken

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