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  1. #21
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    forgot to add, "common coolant tank" antifreeze/water mix, and main lines to goto each engine. ((to allow engine to be flipped upside down and any which way. and not have water pumps suck air))

    need to re-look at schematics for hydrostatic transmissions and variable displacement pumps. to figure out were load sensors, torque sensors, pressure sensors, etc... could be placed. or if some extra main lines need to be added to handle certain sensors.

    currently trying to figure out a way, for "quick disconnect" for engines. so they could be quickly pulled, and replaced with other engine if need be. while broken down engine gets repaired. perhaps as an optional kit?

    still have not figured out how implements would attach, and how things would fold / unfold. so no hyd cylinders in the mix yet. but kinda thinking some "hyd accumulators" might be tied in between "main 3000PSI hyd line" that currently feed hydrostatic transmissions on the wheels. and then another main line that feeds hyd cylinders. that fold/unfold things. to allow for quicker response time. though might upgrade 5 way valve on each engine to a 6 way valve. hhmmsss....

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea22-png

    ================
    went with hydrostatic transmission to an alternator. if engines are all diesel. no need to power spark plugs, just leaving just a bunch of electronics to power. most of which, i would like to think would be low amp units. exception for lighting. figured hydrostatic transmission would allow for differences in variable displacement pump/s on engines. and be able to turn alternator at a given RPM as needed.

    went with a "hyd accumulator" on "main starter hyd line" thinking some engines might be a tad harder to start. and hyd accumulator plus starter motor with hyd pump. might be able to help over come those hard to start engines.

    ===============
    cold start options for engines... hmmmsss. around here it is mostly just corn and beans that are planted. and no real need for a "field" tractor to be used in winter... or rather when temps are near freezing. i suppose though only one engine would need a cold start option. and once it gets started, it could help start the other engines. i suppose a simple "glow plug" on intake manifold on each engine could be easily done. just a wire.

    eeewwww..... grounding and multi engines.... never thought about possibly electrical interference between everything. *rubs chin* that should not be a problem. exception if some sort of wireless connection is used. hhmmss... but man, just one wire or switch that went bad, and allowed things to ground out... that would wreck havoc on entire system possibly. would a feed back sensor possibly allow for a switch / electronic valve is working correctly. and if not kill the switch / valve. and give an alarm sound?
    Last edited by boggen; 09-05-2012 at 02:33 PM.
    Ryan

  2. #22
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    updated diagram for above post...
    -boggen-new-tractor-idea23-png

    ===================

    been thinking about different ways to mount the "front drive wheels" on this machine. and wanted a way to visualize them... so ended up making a diagram with notes for each diagram.

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea24-png

    at moment i am favor of A, F maybe D, though honestly not really sure. the machine would operate like a zero turn driving in reverse. i doubt you would want to be driving wheels over freshly tilled ground and compacting it, or smashing the crop you just put in. hence mention of a zero turn finishing mower driving in reverse. the only difference is there is a bunch more drive wheels. and a computer figures out has fast and direction of wheels turn exception that most outer drive wheel on each side. i would assume be operated by an operator to determined there speed and direction.

    i fancy A, due to ability to turn wheels. and drive machine pretty much any direction you could possibly want. and at same more likely place more tires onto the gangs. to obtain less LBS per square inch being placed onto the ground.

    D perhaps it is just the old allis chalmers narrow front end tractor i currently own. but it looks so easy to drop a hydrostatic transmission down the shaft to allow 360 degree turns of that wheel set, and then a differential with hydrostatic transmission to actually power the set of wheels. heck does not even need differential, just a hydrostatic transmission with shaft coming out both sides to connect wheels to.

    F seems simple approach granted a hydrostatic transmission per wheel. but... you could reverse left side of machine and place right side in forward, and do a zero turn 360 spin. and back up and what not to maneuver around things. granted you could be talking HUGE turns. if multiuple of these machines were hooked up. and that right there has me some. looking at C or A. i keep thinking of how someone might actual steer 200 foot wide by 20 to 50 feet long machine. around curves, up hills, down hills. and in fields that are not "square" or rectangle but go all over the place. heck even in square / rectangular fields. and so far it has came down to. use a 1 to multi machines hooked together. to do majorty of the field. and then using just a single machine and cleaning up the sides of were the multi machines took large turns. to turn around.

    with above, i am actually thinking about A, B, C, D, E diagrams. perhaps more favor for A, B, D diagrams. it would allow multi machines to lift implements move over X amount of feet drop implement back down and continue on with min effort. but that takes lifting and lowering implement and moving over... hhmmsss....

    diagrams A, B, C, D, E. if you had a plow or disc as an implement on. you could simply adjust how much angle each wheel had. and drag the implements at an angle. instead of adjust the plows or discs for a different angle.

    *looks frustrated* nearest thing i can think of. is row crop sprayers that have they 6 to 8 feet diameter wheels and booms that stick 20 to 40 feet on each side of it. -4630_sprayer_523854-jpg
    Ryan

  3. #23
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    been kicking it back and forth, and its down to F, G, H for how drive wheels are mounted to front of machine. A through E, just seemed like useless waste of extra cost for stuff that really would not help, exception when someone trying to be a ram rod.

    choices F,G,H more so after thinking about "weight" and COG (center of gravity) of current tractors out there. and began looking at front drive tires and engine box with hyd pumps and like. as a "dynamic weight box" and it completely depends on what angle the tires are under the engine box. and how much front counter weight you could obtain.

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea25-png

    i think i like 2 cylinders between engine box and implement. instead of a single cylinder and a long bar.

    the 2 cylinders might make it much more easier to hook up to various implements. do to ability to just extend a cylinder A or extend cylinder B just a little bit more. place a pin into implement for one side. and then slip a second pin in. and be ready to go.

    i am actually thinking of FEL (front loader) arms with hyd cylinders to raise lower arms or to change angle of bucket. but in this case FEL arms would not be beefy metal square tubing arms. but be cylinders.

    well hhhmmmsss. 3pt hitch assemblies have it pretty nice. perhaps lower link arms on a 3pt hitch that are extendable-able "for attaching purpose only" and then a hyd cylinder up above. might be the ticket. and then give option of replacing lower link in this case. with another cylinder.

    though thinking about it. having 2 cylinders as a set. might make things easier to "fold" and "un-fold" things once in a field or getting ready to go to the field.
    Ryan

  4. #24
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    ok the unit needs wheely bars! both front and back of the engine box!
    Ryan

  5. #25
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    liking G from post 23 more and more.... the one that resembles a narrow front end for a row crop tractor.
    Attachment 279560

    reduces amount of structural supports that are needed, 2 hydrostatic transmissions could be placed back to back and made into a single piece. and just 2 hyd hoses would be needed.

    thinking about it. perhaps a single hydrostatic transmission. with 2 output shafts. and then some sort of mechanical sensor that deals with pressure to act like a differential.

    or perhaps a single hydrostatic transmission. with 1 output shaft. and then a gear or 2, to create 2 output shafts. one output shaft per tire.

    liking idea of single hydrostatic transmission, it would require less GPM. on con it would require more PSI. when considering overall GPM over the entire machine for all hydrostatic transmissions, and other cylinders and hyd motors. reducing GPM might be huge benefit. to keep friction loss of hyd oil flowing through all the pipe and hoses. less friction, less heat that is created. and possibly reduce diameter of pipes that would be needed to carry all the fluid.
    Ryan

  6. #26
    Elite Member
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    another round of "folding / unfolding" not much luck so far....

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea27-png

    been mulling at me. of having TWO 40 feet machines with implements, all folded up into a 40 feet long by say 10 to 14 feet wide "trailer" then it unfolds, into 80 feet wide machine, then it unfolds the implements.

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea28-png

    *shrugs*

    i am figuring the engine / hyd pump / front drive tires that itself is going to be any were from 2 to 4 feet wide, and guessing 4 to 10 feet tall. and in my mind, it will be heavier than any implement attached to this machine..... and just not clued in on how to lower / raise implement, for turns, and like as well.

    for no till drills, perhaps discs, perhaps harrow. it might not be that bad. i am not sure how in the world bottom plows would go. hhhmmsss.... perhaps implements get trailered / tow to each field along with the machine, and hooked up each time before actually getting to work in a field. but man that seems like a large waste of time and frustration.

    though i could almost see someone trying to attach everything in the middle of a driveway on the farm. and getting frustrated due to things not lining up, vs just pulling everything out into the field were there are acres upon acres of surely enough flat ground to attach everything and get setup.
    Ryan

  7. #27
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    instead of 20 feet wide, i think i am going to press towards 40 to 60 feet wide per machine. thinking semi trailers, and there total length. along with current tractors and towed behind implements as they go down the road. at same time break away from utility class tractors, and jump up into 100HP plus tractors. figure utility class tractors for smaller fields still have there use, plus being "utility" kinda of jack of all trade tractor in that range. and could be dedicated field tractor or land scape tractor or other.... utility class tractors still in cat 2, not really cat 3 3pt hitches. while getting up into 100 HP plus tractors, ya getting into "field" only tractors with cat 3 pt hitches. that are specialized for prepping fields, planting and harvesting...

    jumping up into 100 plus HP market. means, being able to split that total HP up multi times, so smaller size engines can be used. and then those multi engines placed across the machine.

    ========================
    RECAP 2

    multi engines
    --each engine has the following....
    ----radiator
    ----fuel pump
    ----oil pump
    ----coolant pump
    ----injectors for fuel
    ----main fan on engine
    ----muffler
    ----air filter... it would be nice to have a "common air filter" for all engines but that just sounds like trouble. more so with dust clogging filter up quickly.
    ----some sort of cheap plastic or metal cover (half circle) that flops over them. part to help direct air from fan blade around engine part to keep sun and weather off of the engines.
    ----variable displacement pump connected to each engine or built into the engine itself.
    ----see if it would be possible to make engines "quick pull" and "replace" undo some bolts, undo some fittings. slide some forks under it. move engine some place else, and put a replacement engine already known to work, right back in. and let the other engine set off to side to get worked on.


    12v starter motor connects to a hyd pump
    --to crank any given engine over, sending oil from hyd pump attached to starter. through variable displacement pump connected to engine. valving would be need to let this happen. more so once engine started, valve switching over to let the variable displacement pump do its thing.
    --use of hyd accumulator, to off set use of starter motor if another engine is already running. to start another engine.

    alternator is ran off a hydro static transmission
    --all the engines will be diesel. so no real need for a specific engine to have an alternator per engine
    --hydrostatic transmission. would be able to adjust speed pending on how many GPM and pressure is left from hydrostatic transmissions connected to the drive wheels.
    --unsure if one or 2 alternators should be had. for simplicity going to say just 1.

    single 12v battery should be enough. though it might be rather "large" and "heavy"

    drive wheels
    --look kinda like narrow front end of a crop field tractor.
    --single hydrostatic transmission. that has 2 out put shafts instead of one.
    --possibly some sort of differential between the 2 tires. that end up connecting to the single hydrostatic transmission. (differential is bad word in itself. not actual a differential but rather what a differential does is applied)
    --figure a V shape structure support for each set of wheels. and using the support itself as a way to supply hyd oil from and to the hydro static transmission. vs using hoses or external pipe work.
    --front drive wheels only going forward or reverse, that do not turn like front tires on a car or truck would turn.

    frame structure for the "engines and hyd pumps along with drive wheels, the frame itself would be made up pipes welded together to form the actual frame work. instead of having massive amounts of extra pipes hanging from the frame work. going to once pipes are welded together they all fit into a protective sleeve of metal for some extra protection but also help beef up the needed structural support that would be needed.

    dynamic ballast weight.
    --depends on the angle the drive wheels are to engines above them, and weight of the implement attached.

    CAB for the machine
    --turn a regular pickup truck into the cab for this machine. and use a tow bar between back of truck and one of the wheels on machine. the truck would not actual tow or pull the machine around. but rather guide the machine around.
    --i am thinking a wireless internet connection between pickup truck and machine, just to reduce amount of wires between machine and truck.
    --exception to above, "emergency stop" button, wires going between truck and machine.
    --with machine being 40 plus feet wide now. instead of 20 feet wide, i am thinking there would be enough room for large "fuel tanks" on the machine itself. vs placing a large fuel tank in back of a pickup truck. but i am not dis-missing that thought just yet.

    in the last "flow diagram" i showed hyd oil coolers being separate from engines. and instead of a secondary motor to run hyd fluid through hyd filters and the hyd oil filters. i piped the filters and coolers after the hydrostatic transmissions for the drive wheels.
    --i know filters and oil coolers both create a good amount of friction loss. but if only a portion of oil is going through them at any given time. while rest of hyd oil by passes them. some sort of "reasonable" doing could most likely be done with the one 3 way valve.
    --i would imagine the hyd oil coolers would be placed in such a way, the main fan of an engine will help pull air through the hyd oil coolers. and the computer would adjust which filter/cooler got hyd oil pending on what engine was running.

    common fuel tank, common oil tank, common coolant tank. is needed to allow engines, to be flipped any what way. and keep the various pumps on each engine from sucking air. vs the respected fluid.
    --there is a recirculating 12v fuel pump, gut says, an engine on the far side of machine may starve of fuel if not in place. i am unsure about coolant or oil.

    ====================

    hyd oil tank still not figured out yet. there needs to be one. and it may be like above common tanks.

    debating over 40 feet wide machines. mainly due to part of "hills" current implements that are "bat wing styled" and fold out. have some flex to them. but also the needed "joints" that allow those wings to raise up and down some. but for life of me. if you have that large of tractor to begin with already. surely it is flat enough fields that is not that hilly enough to cause part of machine to come up off ground or hit low spots or high spots were implements do not touch or going into the ground deep enough. but... hhhmsssss....
    --would there be a need for a "flex joint" spaced every 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, or 40 feet? to allow machine and implements to traverse hills better? flex joint = allowing machine to curve up and down along its width. and how much degree of movement would it need? 5 degrees? 10 degrees? 20 degrees? up and 20 degrees down? degrees being how steep are the hills a farmer would need to traverse within a field and still be able to prep, plant, harvest these various hills and like in the middle or around edges of fields...
    ----the more degrees in difference. and longer distance between flex joints, greater chance a strip of ground would not get tilled, planted, harvested....
    Ryan

  8. #28
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    nothing set in stone as far as dimensions. just trying to better grasp what machine would look like. and how much wiggle room there might be.

    engine length figure 4 to 5 feet wide, when looking up 450HP divided by 6 engines = 75 HP per engine. looking up 75hp engines quickly on google came back around 4 to 5 feet in length (eerr width in this case)

    another 1.5 feet or so for fan and radiator and hyd oil cooler

    another couple feet for variable displacement pump

    -boggen-new-tractor-idea29-png

    18 tires seem kinda extreme, but similar setups are up to 30 plus tires.... and hopefully implement for this machine would not need the extra tires on front of implement, and just need rear implement tires.
    Ryan

  9. #29
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    really have not brainstormed about it a lot. but re-looking at 3pt hitches... 3pt hitches really has a lot going for them. and thinking about a modified 3pt hitch setup for this machine. instead of 2 lower arms and a top link.....

    going with multi lower arms and multi top links...

    but "yikes" that would be a lot of hooking / unhooking of things and trying to get things aligned...

    perhaps using the idea of how 3pt hitch works... perhaps doing TNT (Top aNd Tilt) modified 3pt hitch. and removing some of the extras that TNT would provide. vs 3pt hitch that does not have TNT.

    yet again more diagrams and blah blah....
    Attachment 279619
    Ryan

  10. #30
    Elite Member
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    Default Re: new tractor idea possibly....

    brainstorming session has not ended!

    modifying a 3pt hitch that went a bit crazy

    criteria....
    --fold/unfold implements and engine box/front drive wheels for trailering down the road way.
    --raise/lower implements. and angle the engine box/front drive wheels, while out in the field while still keeping the machine going at a constant speed with some slowing and speed up doings...

    Attachment 279634

    not even sure were to start. and dreading drawing out multi angles for everything. and different combinations of everything....

    i am hesitant to let a "computer" automatically adjust and in that contact or extend 2 cylinders at one time. when i say 2 cylinders i mean top cylinder and the lower cylinder. and would prefer to see 1 foot of range of motion then stop and another cylinder move. this is more going towards "operator manual control" though now that i think about it, operators have multi levers or joysticks for a backhoe. but on this, everything would be moving while out in the field....
    Ryan

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