Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

[bigdeano]

Just thought I'd mention that the Isuzu diesel car engine I have is rated 51 hp at 5000 rpm. Does that qualify as fast? It runs quite happily at 1500 rpm turning a 10kw generator now.

 

[paulfun9]

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With the same cam , same cylinder head , same compression and same displacement engine . The small bore/long stroke engine makes the same power as the short stroke/large bore engine .

I wouldn't go as far to say that! I have built many engines that were very close even in size for example a 2110cc and a 2109.7 cc engine using the same cams heads,compression. and found very different power curves and peak power and torque. Now in all honesty I cant say that any one engine was exactly the same in size but there were many combinations that were very close and like in the example we are talking within .3 for several of them.

 

[vsteel]

I might buy your different environmental focus argument if there were data to support it. VW, MB, BMW, FC all have brought diesels to America with the same emissions control systems they run in Europe. Yes they had to go through very expensive EPA type certifications for those, the point is that they passed with the same systems they're running in Europe. Now if were talking about underdeveloped producers in third world countries like Tata, Lada Sun or some of those, your right; no way a Tata diesel is going to pass an EPA type certification. However the Big three aren't likely to go looking to those companies for engines. They're looking to their subsidiaries and partners in Europe and Japan. The same Bluetec benz here is the same Bluetec benz in Germany.

There is proof. Research the EPA standard vs the EU standard. It doesn't mean a motor can't be designed for both or a software remap can make it work, it is just harder because you have 2 different standards to meet instead of 1. VW just got nailed for, depending on your view, creative engineering or cheating the EPA standards.

 

[MHarryE]

For off highway, the same engines are used by the majors for Europe, North America, and Japan. Standards vary slightly but Cat, Deere, CNH, Kubota use the same. Pressure is on for USA to match Stage 5 Euro to avoid duplication.

 

[4570Man]

Not so. Per cubic inch even the old carburated gas farm tractor engines mad more power and torque than the natural aspirated diesel . Check the Nebraska tests if you don't believe me. With the same cam , same cylinder head , same compression and same displacement engine . The small bore/long stroke engine makes the same power as the short stroke/large bore engine .

They sure burn more fuel to get there though. I won't be trading in my diesel equipment for gassers any time soon. My 25 hp diesel mower will way out mow my 25 hp gas mower in heavy grass. My 17 hp diesel mower will flat out smoke my 15 hp gas mower. I'm guessing my 17 hp B7200 would dino higher than 17 hp. That little tractor is a real workhorse and tough as nails.

 

[MHarryE]

As for gas superior to diesel in the past per Nebraska tests, remember tractors used the same engine block gas and diesel in the old days. At Gleaner, we used gas and diesel version Allis-Chalmers engines in our combines. The gas engines were rated at a higher power but they couldn't perform - different ability to pull through a tough bunch. We eventually switched to all General Motors gas engines, higher power commercial version. These gassers suffered the same problem - inability to power through a tough spot in the field. That's why I brought up the diesel cycle several posts back. The diesel has the grunt to pull through tough spots. Eventually all manufacturers got rid of gas engines on combines, same as tractors. It's also why my 22 HP gas engine JD lawn tractor is now in the scrap in favor of a 21 HP Kubota that will mow the my 6 acre lawn in half the time.

 

[adventure bob]

As far as batteries go, it seems that betting the energy future of transportation on storage medium invented in 1800 is not the way to go. I know I know diesel isn't a new invention, however the transportation, storage and the amount of energy per vol it stores is really quite good. If you jump to bio, its even better and more cost effective with more positive secondary and tertiary benefits. Corn goes the other way, using more water and energy to produce than the amount of energy per vol it stores. Diesel Fuel Energy (MJ/L) 35.8, Gas 34.2, Ethanol 20.9. Biodiesel 37.27. So of the non dino fuels bio is the closest to its dino counterpart in terms of energy. Thus the reason you can run B100 and not notice a significant drop in HP or mileage. Bio has better lubricity, less NOx, and less Co2 than its Dino counterpart as well. And bio doesn't contribute to the anti American imperialism of oil based countires. We could be way energy independent if we switched.

 

[buickanddeere]

As for gas superior to diesel in the past per Nebraska tests, remember tractors used the same engine block gas and diesel in the old days. At Gleaner, we used gas and diesel version Allis-Chalmers engines in our combines. The gas engines were rated at a higher power but they couldn't perform - different ability to pull through a tough bunch. We eventually switched to all General Motors gas engines, higher power commercial version. These gassers suffered the same problem - inability to power through a tough spot in the field. That's why I brought up the diesel cycle several posts back. The diesel has the grunt to pull through tough spots. Eventually all manufacturers got rid of gas engines on combines, same as tractors. It's also why my 22 HP gas engine JD lawn tractor is now in the scrap in favor of a 21 HP Kubota that will mow the my 6 acre lawn in half the time.

The primary reason gassers were no longer used in combines as they tend to burst into flames more often than a similar diesel. Also as combines became larger HP levels over 100 were diesel by default as industrial gassers above 100HP are scarce.
Once again back then, the carburated gassers with points ignitions and burning leaded fuel were under powered and unreliable fuel hogs . Today gassers are direct injection , no distributors and burn cleaner and cheaper fuel. Diesels used to simple, reliable and burned less of a cheaper prices fuel. Now however with the EPA's current Tier IV emissions and upcoming Tier V emissions . Manufactures will have to re-think the US market where diesel costs as much or more than gasoline . The emissions engines are more $ to build and maintain than a gasser.
There is still a significant gas market in residential, comercial and industrial applicanions in the light, medium and intermitant duty applications . There always be LP powered fork lifts even though LP is a nuisance to fuel compared to diesel.

 

[adventure bob]

I'm not arguing that there aren't differing stds. My point is that we have a national agenda that does not include diesels. EPA passes regulation to promote that agenda. My argument is that modern diesels pass both sets of stds with the equipment installed. MB, BMW, VW (rememeber VW isn't just the VW brand, its Porsche, Audi and a ton of others) do not have a separate designed diesel for the two markets. That would be prohibitive. The same engine and Diesel emission control systems are run in both markets. The cat, the DPF, the DEF injection systems are all the same. Its not different hardware. That's the expensive part by the way. If they run different ECU parameters or not I couldn't tell you because they wont tell you. VW got popped by the way because they were trying to beat the MPG problem, not the emissions problem. They were trying to meet EPA mandated fleet economy ratings and were having a hard time doing it while meeting the emissions requirements. So they cheated, intentionally. Your argument that its too expensive to meet both stds just doesn't hold water because they've already proved they can meet both. Again the bluetec in an American Benz is the same as the one in Europe. The turbo diesel in a BMW is the same as the one the run in Europe. Porsche, Audi, FC same. My jeeps diesel has been in Fiat delivery trucks for years in Europe.

 

[buickanddeere]

I think we can agree that the social engineers at the EPA have an agenda that is against internal combustion , diesel in particular .