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  1. #41
    Super Member
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    Shingle Springs California
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    New Holland TC40D

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    Not true. A high torque low rpm gas engine is entirely possible. Look at all the old JD, Farmall, Ford tractors. Look at an old LaFrance fire engine. The caveat, is they were big Cubic Inches, and used much more gas per unit of work.

    A modern gas motor for a CUT could be made. Torquey as can be. It most likeley would not have to be as big of ci/cc as the old tractor motors, but it would still be bigger ci. And, it would use more gas per unit of work.

    Diesel has more btu than gas. You'll get more work per volume of diesel than you would with gas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    [B]Diesel has much more TORQUE as has been stated. For a low RPM tractor that's it....end of debate.
    RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

  2. #42
    Super Member
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    Shingle Springs California
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    New Holland TC40D

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    Isn't it primarily an emissions issue? My understanding was many of the global diesels run very clean. But, EU etc measure emissions differently than the US-EPA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikeurtractor View Post
    I can't understand this either. If the auto makers are already making these vehicles (and selling in Europe), why isn't it available in the U.S.? Supposedly the Chevy Cruz will have an available diesel option next year (maybe already I haven't been following it) in the U.S. but it was available a year or two ago in Europe with it.

    I hate to think it is purely for emissions reasons, but maybe.
    RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

  3. #43
    Elite Member
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    Dec 2007
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    Ontario, Canada
    Tractor
    Ford 3930

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertN View Post
    Isn't it primarily an emissions issue? My understanding was many of the global diesels run very clean. But, EU etc measure emissions differently than the US-EPA.
    Create a crisis.

    Drive an agenda.

    Manipulation 101.

    Would be interesting to see if there are any medical studies showing that the EU regulations are creating any health problems that the EPA is "preventing".

    Just a guess, but I'd say the primary problem with the EU specs is the point of origin. (Not Invented Here. Or, more like Not Justifying the Existence of a Large Domestic Bureaucracy).

    Rgds, D.

  4. #44
    Elite Member WilliamBos's Avatar
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    Innisfil, Ontario, Canada
    Tractor
    MF 1635 12x12 Powershuttle

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    soy and algae is diesel biofuel. I too can't understand why are we not producing more smaller vehicles with diesel. I am thinking it hasa to do with old mindset ways of old times of diesel spewing black smoke all the time. I also think it has to do with doing away with reliablity and simplicity.
    I really think the attitude of the media has a lit to do with it. I wish GM would release the 4.5L duramax in 2014.
    Thanks,

    Will


    I do not care if someone's net nanny is watching!! You need to stop...

  5. #45
    Platinum Member
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    Apr 2012
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    pa
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    kubota 7040sud

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    the old 1940s and 50s farmalls had a plenty of power i remmber the old 1940 M pap cutting boars on the old saw buck ran off a belt it would not stall the engine at all i know i tryed i could nt do it

  6. #46
    Veteran Member MHarryE's Avatar
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    Northeastern Minnesota
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    JD 7720; Kubota M135GX, NH TS115A; JD 6230; Kubota L5740

    Default

    The US, Europe, and Japan have similar standards and timing of introduction. Tier 4 interim and Stage 3b generally use the same engines. Diesel cars have been very common in Europe for decades due to improved fuel economy and high fuel prices. Their fuel is consequently much better controlled. USA has a wide variation in fuel quality which has been a problem, but also car emission standards have not been equal. VW, BMW, and Mercedes are 3 that import diesel cars into the US that I know of but many US vehicles built for export have Diesel engines that can't be sold in the US. If there was demand they would be made compliant and would be sold but there is little demand.
    JD7720; KubotaM135GX; NH TS115A; JD6230; KubotaL5740

  7. #47
    Elite Member
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    Ontario, Canada
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    Ford 3930

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    Quote Originally Posted by MHarryE View Post
    The US, Europe, and Japan have similar standards and timing of introduction. Tier 4 interim and Stage 3b generally use the same engines. Diesel cars have been very common in Europe for decades due to improved fuel economy and high fuel prices. Their fuel is consequently much better controlled. USA has a wide variation in fuel quality which has been a problem, but also car emission standards have not been equal. VW, BMW, and Mercedes are 3 that import diesel cars into the US that I know of but many US vehicles built for export have Diesel engines that can't be sold in the US. If there was demand they would be made compliant and would be sold but there is little demand.
    1) Lack of (publicly marketed) information.

    2) Lack of political will/direction from the corporations that own the politicians.

    I like to believe (dream) that people, given the knowledge and real world demonstration of efficiency, would chose the superior technology. Perhaps you are right Harry; I give the public far too much credit, and this has to wait for $10/gal gasoline.

    Domestic diesel fuel quality variation - that was just the Oil companies being allowed to make more profit. The corporations that run the refineries in the EU are pretty much the same masters of the universe we have here. So, they already knew exactly how to fix that problem, and have had those systems in place in Europe for a long time.

    I don't know enough about the current state of USA diesel production to comment on present day quality. Suffice it to say, the EPA (that is driving all the diesel engines we find useful/reliable out of existence) has the ability to legislate whatever fuel quality is required to match EU performance. Somehow, I can't see the oil company CEOs announcing at a DOE conference that they can't keep up with the Europeans when producing diesel fuel in the USA.

    Marketing ? I think the country that can market Pet Rocks and Lilo can market literally anything - a highly efficient, long lasting engine should be a slam dunk. But, apparently only when the masters of the universe allow it to be.

    Rgds, D.

  8. #48
    Gold Member Boeing's Avatar
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    Botetourt, Va
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    kubota L3010

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    "VERY LITTLE DEMAND?????" C'mon, Harry....there is great demand, lest we wouldn't be selling Diesel PICKUPS, and people wouldn't be buying HYBRIDS to use less expensive gas. The Gas Companies have artificialy pushed the cost of diesel up....and up some more, so it doesn't look economical enough to hollar for diesel cars. The few diesel cars that ARE available are FOREIGN and EXPENSIVE.
    WHY?.....if there was no demand would the "foreign and expensive" be able to sell here? Don't you think the guy who buys a HUNDAI would LOVE to get a diesel? Like the small cars I see in El Salvadore, Trinidad, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic...etc, etc......all diesel.
    Nope, we RICH Americans will take what the manufacturers "grant us"......and fuel the oil companies sell at a cost that most can afford.

  9. #49
    Veteran Member MHarryE's Avatar
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    Northeastern Minnesota
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    JD 7720; Kubota M135GX, NH TS115A; JD 6230; Kubota L5740

    Default

    Okay, I lived in Europe and afterward spent 50% of my time there on business travel. In Europe diesels cot more but make up for it in improved fuel economy. Some countries like France tax diesel at a lower rate giving the diesel a double benefit so they have a high percentage diesels. Italy gives their break to compressed natural gas so cars with small gas tanks converted to run on CNG are very popular and relatively inexpensive. Most Europeans drive sticks and the lugging ability of a diesel makes it much easier to drive. Even on econoboxes the diesel sells for a hefty premium. In America the average consumer isn't going to pay a premium until they see a payback. For my personal car I did have a diesel choice but I went with the gas because there was no payback what with diesel being 85 cents per gallon more expensive than gas. I understand Ford had a 6 cylinder diesel ready to go into the F-150 but when they got serious by giving a realistic price quote to buyers and finding very little demand, they killed it. I would love to have another diesel, both car and pickup, but the oil companies don't want that. Remember, fuel is taxed the same per gallon gas or diesel. It is big oil setting the fuel price, not big government.
    JD7720; KubotaM135GX; NH TS115A; JD6230; KubotaL5740

  10. #50
    Elite Member
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    Murray, KY
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    265 MF / JD 310B Backhoe

    Default Re: Will Tier 4 lead to gas tractors again?

    MHarryE that is a good point about the few automatic transmissions in Europe. Small diesels mated to an automatic transmission feels like a double doggy drive. The old world is about quality and value. USA is about trading all the time so skip the quality and value so I can afford to trade every few years.

    Cut out the power everything and go with a manual gear box in vehicles then they will last about as long as tractors in that they are rebuildable. A 10 year old Towncar with has no value because of the cost to fix all small broken stuff.

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