IF You are a Tractor Operator in your ROOKIE Season.

[AxleHub]

Well I definitely agree that having rear ballast on a fel load on an incline going down is needed. However with the fel load unloaded and going back up the incline . . now am I not out of balance again? This is why I'm designing a 3pt ballast unit that I can set low or raise higher . . But all the weight and unit is narrow and not wide or tall.

See . . now this thread is creating some additional ideas or thoughts for me too.

Safety is always an issue for me because I mostly am doing heavy work by myself.

 

[AxleHub]

I was disappointed today when I ran into someone I know who is an avid tractor user and a highly intelligent person. He's used tractors for 20 years and considers me more "green" than I really am.

But he was telling me how he never uses a seat belt . . and I asked him why? I expected to hear dome really sharply thought out reasoning and instead he just said . . He's never seen a need for it.

I was disappointed because it reminded me of my heavy biking days when some would not wear helmets on the highway because they didn't want to look weak.

Well its just dumb . . . not strong. You don't need to be "cradled" in protective gear . . but its just the absence of intelligence to be totally reckless on something as easy as a tractor seat belt . . Unless of course . . you never "turn the key"

 

[check]

Well I definitely agree that having rear ballast on a fel load on an incline going down is needed. However with the fel load unloaded and going back up the incline . . now am I not out of balance again? This is why I'm designing a 3pt ballast unit that I can set low or raise higher . . But all the weight and unit is narrow and not wide or tall.

See . . now this thread is creating some additional ideas or thoughts for me too.

Safety is always an issue for me because I mostly am doing heavy work by myself.

Good question, AxleHub. I have never had a problem when going back up the hill empty, so I never thought of it. I suppose if you start to tilt backwards the backhoe will hit the ground pretty quick and stop you, but that is an empirical question that I hopefully will NOT have to answer. At the same time, however, I have never gone up even a moderate slope empty, but I will certainly pay attention from now on, and maybe put something in the FEL if I do (or simply back up the slope).

 

[kencunningham]

You have to realize that a tractor has a pivoting front axle, so you must first understand that the center of gravity must stay inside of a triangle that is formed by the front pivot and the two rear tires. Since the area of the triangle is very small at the pivot point, it makes it much easier to have a tip over when the front bucket is loaded, because the center of gravity will have moved closer to the pivot point.

Now realize that the center of gravity can also move sideways. Imagine a spot on the tractor that you would think is the center of gravity, now picture a plumb bob hanging from that. Remember to visualize your 3 points of reference ( the front pivot and rear tires ). Notice that as the tractor is headed down hill the center of gravity will move closer to the front to the triangle and when headed up hill it will move closer to the back tires where the triangle is at its widest point. The same thing happens when you have the tractor on a side slope, the imaginary pumb bob will move closer to the edge of the triangle, and when you have a load in the bucket the effect is compounded by the weight in the loader moving the center of gravity closer to the small part of the triangle.

I hope i have expained this good enough so that others can understand this concept. The same thing applies to forklifts, except the pivot is in the back and the front tires form the other corners. That is why a loaded forklift is more stable than a unloaded one, assumming you dont have the thing overloaded with the forks raised all the way up and sitting sideways on a hill.

 

[paulfun9]

I see three issues with this concept that would make me nervous. I understand the weight tranfer isdue, however:..

1. With the pallet load or bucket load in the front moving scenario . . I understand that I can use that fel load to push down on the ground to make a "front outrigger" effect that I can't do if I'm backing down. As long as I'm not going fast I can force a slowing down and stability braking even on wet grass. (Going fast of course would create a potential slingshot turn over). When backing down I'm forced to have my load much higher because of the land position and angle. And a much higher load seems to expose the issue of negative leverage issues.

2. If I'm backing down an incline with a heavy load . . if I start to break loose . . the load becomes like a heavy semi trailer that wants to jack knife around the tractor . . And it could cause a spin that then becomes a sideways turn over.

3. If there is something at the bottom of the hill and I'd break loose . . Going down forward gives me some bumper protection that I would not have going backwards. Going forward also allows my seat belt to be a benefit where backing down my seat belt is not my friend.

Now in all my 3 concerns shown speed is my enemy and if I break loose I'd think I want to have backup methods to quickly and safely reduce speed without spin. I see where backing down might reduce the chances of breaking loose . . but once that happens . . I see no methods of backup.

Can you show me where I'm in error ? Thanks.

If you find this to be the case then you have made an other blunder and not properly used ballast or have exceeded the recommended lift ability of your machine. In short just because your loader will lift and carry an extra 100LBS or so of material at a few inches to a foot or two, its not rated to do so and it is also recommended that you use rear ballast for weight distribution and not be dependent on tire ballast. Weight in the tires is for traction and should not be considered weight for FEL use and yes I know this is contrary to some manufacture recommendations but its also based on the average machine not each specific machine.

Now for what will happen when you do it forward or reverse go put some extra weight into your bucket and drive up the hill till the rear tires lift. and see what happens with no movement of the loader on your part. The tractor will stop with the bucket on the ground and the rear tires in the air but while going forward you have made yourself vulnerable to making yet an other blunder of pulling the lever the wrong direction and actually flipping the tractor rather than saving it. I can actually overload my loader and park facing up on the steepest part of my driveway with the rear tires elevated overnight but with all that unstable weight up in the air facing down it will eventually go to one side or the other resulting in a tip over. Think about where the steering is and the weight transfer at that point.

Going downhill and dropping the bucket because your weight distribution wasn't correct can lead to bent broken parts when the loader digs in , broken front axels and sideways motion which can and all do lead to possible tip/roll situations because your momentum doesn't just stop as the bucket hits the ground its transferred and sometimes leads to other unplanned movements. Anyone who has ever had a frontal impact in a minor car accident can attest to this and anyone who had ever inadvertently hit lets say a tree with their bucket out front can also attest to this motion transfer . Why do you think most of all low speed accidents with front end contact result in one or more cars sitting sideways not straight compared to their intended direction of travel.

Now lets talk about what can happen when the loader hits the ground and the rear tires are raised. Your steering at the front wheels goes to what? With the machine going down in reverse the rear is not raised near as much the weight transfer is much different the bucket can still be used to some effect as a brake but I don't need a bumper because I can still steer the tractor without as much fear of tipping because the weight transfer from the steering will not be letting the bulk of the tractor come around and I can steer clear of objects to a much better degree.
Also look at what happens when you come in contact with the flat ground at the bottom of the hill with the rear raised if you make it that far. Momentum and force is against you again but the rear will make for a much smoother transition and a quicker gain of control


I hope this conversation makes you give your post about lifting more than your tractor is rated for just because it was able to, second thoughts because even at the lower lift height you are operating it outside of its intended use and making yourself more vulnerable to just these type of incidents. You talk about someone rideing a motorcycle with no helmet but I would rather ride a bike with no helmet than ride an overloaded bike with one, same goes for seat belts on an overloaded tractor compared to not overloading the tractor to begin with! Your friend who sees no need for a safety belt probably understands his machines limits and functions much more clearly than you realize.

 

[RaydaKub]

If this is your Rookie season . . you may wonder what I mwan by that.

Simple. I'm not defining it by what else you've used or driven . If it was skidsteers . . you're re still a rookie. If uts lawn and garden tractors . . still a rookie.

Why that definition? Because tractors of all suzes have a different leverage situation and a different center of gravity than other equipment.

An example: Let's say you are manually placing some kind of concrete block or brick in a raised bucket or raised forks/pallet supported platform. If you pile em up good and the tractor is on even the slightest of side hill . . If your load is elevated when you go to get on the tractor you can cause some tipping of the tractor. Not possible you say? Oh yes it is unless the load is light and the tractor very large . . Because a quantity load extended in the front fel area alters your center of gravity. So then on even a slight side incline a person getting on from that side can make a rear tire "light". I did it twice today. Whats the solution? Simple . . Just slowly lower the fel down to the ground and then, get on the tractor. Now its no sweat to raise the load and move the tractor because you are no longer exerting side force by getting on.

I would submit, AxleHub, that if your body weight is making the difference in whether the tractor is tippy or not, that you need to correct the ballast. Your 100-300 lbs of body weight (trying to be generous here) shouldn't matter, but when not properly balanced out, it certainly can on small rigs. I've been there on my BX which appears to be similar size to your GC. It really was my rookie season, but it scared the crap outta me. Always plan to ballast better so you are not the ballast that gets off and watches your tractor tip.

 

[Wagtail]

The way I see it, you can still drop the FEL on the ground for a brake going backwards or forwards. While I have broke loose several times going forward, I have never broke loose going backwards. Some of your other points may have some merit, but I still think if you back down the hill, you are mitigating risk.

Even though it's been fully covered as to why you'd back-down an incline with a loaded; I learnt the principal during an industrial forklift course (it's amazing what courses the Navy sends you on). I then transferred that knowledge/technique to operating my tractor & FEL.

It came in real handy last year whilst fetching rounds of freshly bound hay on a 35 degree incline... drive up/back down. :thumbsup:

 

[Kioti Lee]

I have experienced the tipping , rear wheels coming up. The road I drive between house and farm has some fairly steep hills. I almost always have my tractor in four wheel drive, however this trip I did not. Nice day,dry road .. I used FEL to pick up knack box of tools and headed to farm. Going down last hill I noticed I was gaining speed. Brakes had no effect..took me a few seconds to realize back tires were coming off ground. Had a pucker moment as I didn't want to drop FEL and damaged tool box. I was able to lean back enough to cause tires to touch a little more, just enough. Two things I learned. Always has ballast in back. I use my box scraper now. Always stay aware of what you are doing and what is happening around you. It was a nice spring day and I wasn't paying attention like I should have

 

[AxleHub]

I would submit, AxleHub, that if your body weight is making the difference in whether the tractor is tippy or not, that you need to correct the ballast. Your 100-300 lbs of body weight (trying to be generous here) shouldn't matter, but when not properly balanced out, it certainly can on small rigs. I've been there on my BX which appears to be similar size to your GC. It really was my rookie season, but it scared the crap outta me. Always plan to ballast better so you are not the ballast that gets off and watches your tractor tip.

Greetings Ray,

I think you're missing a couple of key words in my post. I said "even the slightest side hill".

Now lets say I have the fel/forks elevated by 2 feet to make it easier loading and when I'm going to get back on the tractor I still leave the fel/forks at that same modest elevated height. On a very minor side pitch. Lets also assume I have 275 lbs of weight as my body weight.

Before I try to get on the tractor on this very minor side pitch the rears are sitting absolutely flat on the ground. The mistake I was describing as a safety issue for users to consider . . Is that attempting to get on the tractor creates 275 lbs. Of side pull . . Side pull . . Not front pull . . Side pull. And additional ballast is about either front or back pull not side pull.

to avoid that mistake you simply lower the fel/forks/paylosd to the ground and then get on. At that point you can lift your load and proceed without difficulty because you no longer have the added 275 lbs of side pull that is trying to side-tip the tractor. Remember . . That 275 lbs. Is leveraged on the narrow side of the tractor. Even a high snd low spot on a flat lawn can cause this with an elevated fel payload.

 

[biodegraded]

I've had my first CUT for 4 months and 61 hours. Nothing to report. It's fine, I'm fine, stuff gets done.