Help choosing a welder

   / Help choosing a welder #101  
gemini5362 said:
When I went to NASA soldering class they would not let us wear sandals so I dont have any good burn stories to tell. :(

Although I do have some neat stories about trying to do precision wiring on a ship that is taking 20 to 30 degree rolls.

Thomas, Did you ever use a PACE kit?

By the way, my wife has provided me with lunch at sea when we were rolling more than that. We used to carry baby bottles so you could get a bottle of soup when the sailing was hard without drinking mostly water and or spilling the soup. You cut a generous hole in the bottle's nipple so it will let the noodles or whatever go through. Bananas and wieners are pretty waterproof too. (Gimbaled stove)

Is it perhaps a universal fact that everyone who solders electronics burns their fingers at least a little waiting for the solder to harden before letting go so as to not disturb the joint? I'd like to believe that I'm not the only one who couldn't always make do with pliers.

Pat
 
   / Help choosing a welder #102  
for that very reason you mention about the auto darkening hellmet not having a flip-up visor.. That's why i wear my conventional helmet more often.. at least on the smaller jobs where i am making lots of small welds and doing lots of repositioning of work parts. On larger welds on bigger machiners.. I tend to use the auto darken more..

soundguy

patrick_g said:
Soundguy, I understand all that. I use an auto darkening helmet. It will trigger on the sparks of a grinder which makes for a bit of a "light show" flashing back and forth between shade 9 and shade 11-14. So I have to raise the helmet anyway to grind (I wear glasses) and with the muffs handy or sometimes I use the ear plugs on a curved plastic yoke, it isn't all that much of a fuss although it would be simpler to do it your way.

If the helmet had a tilt up feature for the auto darkening screen that would be cool but I get by.

Pat
 
   / Help choosing a welder #103  
patrick_g said:
Is it perhaps a universal fact that everyone who solders electronics burns their fingers at least a little waiting for the solder to harden before letting go so as to not disturb the joint? I'd like to believe that I'm not the only one who couldn't always make do with pliers.

Pat


Yeah.. I take that pretty much as a universal constant!

soundguy
 
   / Help choosing a welder #104  
This thread is already too long, but I have a slightly different opinion to offer, so here goes:

For your first welder, buy a mid-range welder, MIG or Stick-type, don't worry too much comparing prices, worry more about getting all the extra's. The welding helmet is critical, don't skimp there. Grinder wheels, leathers, spools of wire/sticks, spare tips, etc will cost more than the welder. Everyone here is comparing base welder prices, but you'ld be better off comparing costs of leathers. You will buy a welder once, but you'll be buying consumables over and over, and probably building up your protection gear a little here, a little there. Wire wheels don't last very long, grinder wheels get used up in 10 minutes sometimes, and those can be anywhere from $2 to $15 for similar items at different places.

The best reason to go to a welding supply place is they will help you pick the right supplies for the job you are doing, and answer your questions. If you are new to welding, they may be just as informative as going to a class at the local college. They will probably save you a lot of time and trouble, stop you from buying things you don't need and help you not to do the job twice.

Of course, doing the job twice is the best way to learn. Probably the most opinionated folks here are the type that does everything 2 or 3 times, improving each time. The old saying I like is, "He who seldom makes mistakes, seldom makes anything."

Personally, I bought a $250 MIG from Home Depot, and spent another $300 on the hood, leathers, grinding wheels, etc. Went home, read the book, did some test welding, then did some real welding. And in one day, I had fixed a bunch of galvanized steel tube horse fencing panels. I'm sure it would have cost just as much to have a professional do it, and they probably would have done a better job, but my job was good enough and its still holding today.
Then I went back and bought another $200 worth of supplies and another grinder. And then went back and bought a torch and a better hacksaw. And then bought more leathers. I still don't have a band saw, but that would be nice. I don't have a drill press or a lot of clamps, but that would be nice too. So once you start welding, you'll be on a slippery slope. Its a whole new hobby to spend money on, just like owning a tractor. So the cost of the welder itself will be a distant memory - the cost of the accessories should concern you more.

I did my first welding in shorts, tennis shoes, a cotton tee-shirt, and a hat. But I had my full-face helmet, and one long leather glove, and I kept my body as far from the welding as possible. Yes, I got stung by sparks many times, maybe I was lucky not to get badly burned, but again, you've got to experience it to understand. Being told the stove is hot is not as good as actually touching it. Also welding makes a lot of smoke - you generally can't do it indoors. The fumes will make you miserable. But I noticed that few people mention that, they just take it for granted. And grinding down the welds after you make them is a common practice - again that was rarely mentioned as a key skill or an important aspect of welding, but it is. So my point is, there is a lot more to welding than just managing the arc.

Last bit of advice - you won't know whether your welds are good or bad until months or years later. Welds generally hold in the beginning but weaken over time. And a pretty weld is not the same as a good weld. In a farm environment, functional welds that last are far more important than carrying a nice bead. In my opinion, 50% or more of the experience of welding is learning about metals and knowing when metals are weldable or not. Not everything is made of steel. And almost nobody does aluminum welding on a farm/ranch, so don't even worry about it. So my advice is to get out there and try welding - like the poster that fixed a tool by welding it. Try welding galvanized stuff, just to see. Try not cleaning the rust first, just to see. Visit that scrap yard, just to know what's available. Don't worry about doing things wrong - its all opinion anyway, and if it works for you then its not wrong, is it?!

You can't learn much about welding by just studying the specs of various welders. And every brand makes high-end and low-end versions, so quality is relative. Any welding machine will weld. Some are easier than others for beginners, but that's about the only important difference.

In fact, its a lot like choosing a tractor - any tractor will do the job. Its all personal preference and controlled by your intended uses and your finances. Small tractors do most things that big tractors do, but slower. Small welders are the same. But you can't really learn about tractors or welders by studying their specs. You have to use them.
 
   / Help choosing a welder #105  
kbuegel said:
This thread is already too long, but I have a slightly different opinion to offer, so here goes:

For your first welder, buy a mid-range welder, MIG or Stick-type, don't worry too much comparing prices, worry more about getting all the extra's. The welding helmet is critical, don't skimp there. Grinder wheels, leathers, spools of wire/sticks, spare tips, etc will cost more than the welder. Everyone here is comparing base welder prices, but you'ld be better off comparing costs of leathers. You will buy a welder once, but you'll be buying consumables over and over, and probably building up your protection gear a little here, a little there. Wire wheels don't last very long, grinder wheels get used up in 10 minutes sometimes, and those can be anywhere from $2 to $15 for similar items at different places.

The best reason to go to a welding supply place is they will help you pick the right supplies for the job you are doing, and answer your questions. If you are new to welding, they may be just as informative as going to a class at the local college. They will probably save you a lot of time and trouble, stop you from buying things you don't need and help you not to do the job twice.

Of course, doing the job twice is the best way to learn. Probably the most opinionated folks here are the type that does everything 2 or 3 times, improving each time. The old saying I like is, "He who seldom makes mistakes, seldom makes anything."

Personally, I bought a $250 MIG from Home Depot, and spent another $300 on the hood, leathers, grinding wheels, etc. Went home, read the book, did some test welding, then did some real welding. And in one day, I had fixed a bunch of galvanized steel tube horse fencing panels. I'm sure it would have cost just as much to have a professional do it, and they probably would have done a better job, but my job was good enough and its still holding today.
Then I went back and bought another $200 worth of supplies and another grinder. And then went back and bought a torch and a better hacksaw. And then bought more leathers. I still don't have a band saw, but that would be nice. I don't have a drill press or a lot of clamps, but that would be nice too. So once you start welding, you'll be on a slippery slope. Its a whole new hobby to spend money on, just like owning a tractor. So the cost of the welder itself will be a distant memory - the cost of the accessories should concern you more.

I did my first welding in shorts, tennis shoes, a cotton tee-shirt, and a hat. But I had my full-face helmet, and one long leather glove, and I kept my body as far from the welding as possible. Yes, I got stung by sparks many times, maybe I was lucky not to get badly burned, but again, you've got to experience it to understand. Being told the stove is hot is not as good as actually touching it. Also welding makes a lot of smoke - you generally can't do it indoors. The fumes will make you miserable. But I noticed that few people mention that, they just take it for granted. And grinding down the welds after you make them is a common practice - again that was rarely mentioned as a key skill or an important aspect of welding, but it is. So my point is, there is a lot more to welding than just managing the arc.

Last bit of advice - you won't know whether your welds are good or bad until months or years later. Welds generally hold in the beginning but weaken over time. And a pretty weld is not the same as a good weld. In a farm environment, functional welds that last are far more important than carrying a nice bead. In my opinion, 50% or more of the experience of welding is learning about metals and knowing when metals are weldable or not. Not everything is made of steel. And almost nobody does aluminum welding on a farm/ranch, so don't even worry about it. So my advice is to get out there and try welding - like the poster that fixed a tool by welding it. Try welding galvanized stuff, just to see. Try not cleaning the rust first, just to see. Visit that scrap yard, just to know what's available. Don't worry about doing things wrong - its all opinion anyway, and if it works for you then its not wrong, is it?!

You can't learn much about welding by just studying the specs of various welders. And every brand makes high-end and low-end versions, so quality is relative. Any welding machine will weld. Some are easier than others for beIinners, but that's about the only important difference.

In fact, its a lot like choosing a tractor - any tractor will do the job. Its all personal preference and controlled by your intended uses and your finances. Small tractors do most things that big tractors do, but slower. Small welders are the same. But you can't really learn about tractors or welders by studying their specs. You have to use them.


I have one comment and one question. First the comment. While I agree with a lot of the things you mention. Several people on here including myself have used the auto darkening helmet from Harbor Freight. It is about 50.00 and does a very good job. Now the question. Did I see you say above you welded galvanized for your first welding job? I am sure there will be comments about that I believe that there is an issue with the fumes from galvanized metal being a health hazard.
 
   / Help choosing a welder #106  
patrick_g said:
Thomas, Did you ever use a PACE kit?

By the way, my wife has provided me with lunch at sea when we were rolling more than that. We used to carry baby bottles so you could get a bottle of soup when the sailing was hard without drinking mostly water and or spilling the soup. You cut a generous hole in the bottle's nipple so it will let the noodles or whatever go through. Bananas and wieners are pretty waterproof too. (Gimbaled stove)

Is it perhaps a universal fact that everyone who solders electronics burns their fingers at least a little waiting for the solder to harden before letting go so as to not disturb the joint? I'd like to believe that I'm not the only one who couldn't always make do with pliers.

Pat

I have seen pace units but we did not have one at the site where I was at. After I left NASA. I did however with just the basic stuff like a controlled temp soldering gun. Woven copper for wicking solder out while desoldering etc reconfigure a circuit board. The QC we had on that job told me he was going to inspect it and it had better be a good job. (we were friends and he was semi joking) I had to just remove a transistor and some components and solder them back at another spot on the board. I actually did the job to NASA standards and when he went to inspect the board he thought we were playing a trick on him and had not touched it yet. He swore that I had not done anything to the board. I finally had to have him look at the schematic and show him what had been moved.


Yeah I know people go on those small boats out into the big sea and roll all over the place. I get sick when I try that. I was going to add that when i did that soldering I was in a radar director barbette with no room to move around. I was wrapped around equipment and cables standing on a small ladder but I did not want to make the story unbelievable. :)


I have burned my fingers on wires waiting for them to cool.
 
   / Help choosing a welder #107  
Amen, Gemini.
Breathing galvanize fumes can mess you up bad. For all those accessory items mentioned, get a welding respirator. It's much cheaper than a trip to the emergency room when you can't breathe any more. Get a disposable kind that fits under your helmet.
 
   / Help choosing a welder #108  
the issue of fumes, it's true...i take it for granted; breathing any knid of weld fumes just don't sound like a great idea to me. where i took welding classes, there was a constant roar from the exhaust fan-each 'station' had a sucker port that went to a large cfm exhaust fan; i spent about $300 on an exhaust fan, so i can weld in the shop when it's raining and i can't work outside (more 'stuff that isn't the welder but costs lots of $)....

hearing protection...when i was growing up in the dark ages, it was not 'macho' to wear hearing protection. i've ridden mc's, shot rifles, all sorts of stuff...i used to be able to hear people whisper 100ft away...now i hear 'eeeeeee' alla time (tinnitus)....any of you who don't have hearing loss above 3k hz like i do, your choice (some people evidently get hearing loss without the ringing, others get the ringing with the slightest hearing loss)...good-really good-hearing pro, or 'eeeeee' (sometimes eeeee changes to boooonnnngggg, then back to eeeeee)...and, since i enjoy mozart, i can't hear the triangle, or sometimes high notes on the violin...sux. (yeah, my testosterone is falling off-age...frankly, it's a relief to me lol) i now wear earplugs to vacuum, or for anything else that is uncomfortable or possibly damaging to what i have left. a world with only 'eeeee' sounds like a bummer to me....

worst weld burn i ever got was in welding class. we were doing a 'test'; i needed a couple pieces of scrap for a vertical weld; too lazy to cut, so i went outside in the dark to the dumpster, and looked around for a couple pieces...one had just went from glowing red to 'dark', and i got it...dint have it long....lol! burnt the hooey out of my fingers....now i am much more careful (the hot stove principle in action, mr. Darwin :))

i think my $100 northern tools 110volt box is dc; i don't have a problem-just gotta clean the parts good to do 3/32 6013, and it does what i want; made a table out of some thickwalled pipe, a piece of 1/4" plate and some rebar for cross pieces on the legs-it is for welding with the 100/chain saw/axe sharpening/beating on stuff with a 2# sledge-can't hurt it; if i do, it was relatively cheap to make-another success in welding story :). it does small repairs well; i ahven't got around to wiring my shop for 220 yet for the lincoln; a major move 5 years ago, and still trying to catch up. love my 110, though....a guy who was adventurous could start out with a 110 like i have, imo, and not be 'wrong'; it's a little tricky to learn, compared to a tombstone (i think the ac on the tombstone is a lil easier to start with), but a little persistence, a good refernce book, and a little time, your hoes/shovels/stair rails, mower deck....all of it would be fixed. and you can practice on junk metal. i just fixed a sling blade the other day...not enough heat to ruin the temper if you 'spot' weld one place, clean another...etc....only got a 20% duty cycle, anyway, so time between welding works to my advantage...

anytime i want to know anything, or add to what i kknow, i go on a good forum like this one, blackle some related terms, and then go to the library to sit with headphones on and wolfgang playing and read their reference books. time well spent in my experience...
rebb
 
 
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