To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?

   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine? #41  
Not really a hydro trans.. but more akin to a 'power-shift' gear trans...

soundguy

John already beat me to the punch on the balancer. Yes, the Select-O-Speed (SOS) transmission was an early hydro transmission that used a combination of hydraulics, tension bands, valves, and clutch packs to deliver 10 forward and 2 reverse speeds (+ PTO). I think these trannys came out in around '59 actually, but were greatly improved in late 60's and continued to be used with the ford 2000-6000 series. More knowledgeable TBN's can give you a more complete run-down of history and mechanics for the SOS :p.

In my case, the SOS actually was working reasonably well (when the engine seized), but the PTO no longer engaged properly. Unfortunately, unless I have a broken PTO shaft or cable, the repair will probably require me to dive into the transmission. Looks like the PTO and inching pedal (feathering valve) run off of the band 2 (Wow- that clears it up doesn't it? :confused:)

Engine first - I say!
Pete
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?
  • Thread Starter
#42  
If $$ are tight, you will be 99.999% good if you just order bearings that are the same as what was in there. (I didn't look close at the bearings, you might be able to reuse). The crank looked great. The ford diesel cranks were tough, but the rod bolts were known to be pizz poor. I had ARP's fitted. At the very least I would have new factory bolts put in. They stretch and get weak while looking good, then blow a hole in the side of the block when you are not expecting it.

Yeah, pull the oil pump apart. Measure the distance between the gear points and the housing at the closest. That is the clearance that determines how much oil the pump will pump. Also the distance from the gears face to the metal cover. And look for scratches, etc. Based on your crank, it should be good. I would also pull the relief spring and add a 1/8th inch washer to up the oil pressure 5-15 psi. I am of the more is better when it comes to oil pressure club!

Putting the injection pump back is cake. Except, that the #1 may not be on the comression stroke when you have the cam/crank gears lined up! Make sure you have the number 1 (closest to the radiator) on the compression stroke, static time the with the flywheel marks to 23 degrees BTDC and align the marks in the pump timing window EXACTLY! If you can't get the marks to show up, the pump gear drive in the block is backwards. I forget if it's offset away from the block or towards the block, this is coming off the cuff. But it only goes one way. The "trick" to getting it to seat on the oil pump drive shaft is to press it down with one hand and turn the crank by hand at the same time. The hex shaft will dance around in there and eventually go in. (You can actually set it in there with the oil pan off, but knowing how to do it with the pan on is nice!).

Thanks John. I'll definitely add your suggestions to my growing list. My current strategy is to take the block, head, and pistons to my local machinist/engine rebuilder. It makes sense to me to have an "expert" take a close look at the pistons - and it gives me an opportunity to ask about ringing, knurling, replacing the rod bearings and bolts. I'd assume he would be able to hook me up with a set of ARP or factory bolts. Here's my basic plan of attack:

1. Look at the pistons:
(A) If a piston is bad - project is likely over - or at least shelved until I can convince my wife (and myself) that's I should spend $750-1000 to overhaul to 0.03-0.04 pistons :(. She's beginning to realize that I'm planning on keeping this tractor if I get the engine rebuilt. The only way I'm going to pull this off would be to (A) have a good engine, and (B) plan for a complete restoration towards "show" quality. This is no doubt a long-term project, but one that I would enjoy, and one my wife could get on board for :cool:.

(2) Cylinders: If pistons look good, we take bore measurements to determine if within specs, hone, cleanup, and decide on how to proceed with ringing/knurling the pistons etc. Depending upon the final bore measurements I may order 0.03 piston rings and then custom grind to the proper ring gap. Lots of work yes, but also the only way I can be sure that I get a proper seat in the cyls.

(3) Head and Valves: I think I'll take the head and valves along to get a "second" opinion. I worked on both yesterday and with the exception of some minor pitting on the flat surface of two of the valves, the stems and seating surfaces on both the head and valves look sparkling clean, and ready to lap. Unless my guy can convince me that things won't work without valve grinding, head grinding, etc., I'll do the the lapping myself.

Does this seem like a reasonable POA? Anything I'm missing here? There have been tons of suggestions throughout this thready and I'm probably missing some obvious "must-dos".

-Pete
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?
  • Thread Starter
#43  
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine? #44  
I think you are over doing it without real cause. Just to prepare you, the machine shop will probably find some reason to do more work. Duh, it's what they do. You could probably just put in new rings, hand lap the valves and have it work good for the next 1000 hours. It looks good enough from the pictures. You may have under estimated the costs of a pro-rebuild. The kits are $5-900 depending on content and quality. The shop will need to degrease and clean the parts ($), measure them ($$), do some machine work ($$$$) and if they put it all together ($$$$$$), well you get the drift. I spent over 2000 on my short block. But, I had to buy 3 rods to balance them, balanced the rotating assembly to 1 gram, 20 over pistons, bore and hone the block with deck plate, grind the crank, face the tappets, recondition the rods, add new rod bolts, new bearings, new oil pump, along with all the charges for inspection, cleaning and what not. Then the head needed attention too. But, mine looked like heck compared to yours! But it purrs like a happy kitten now, so I guess it was worth it in the end.
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?
  • Thread Starter
#45  
Just to prepare you, the machine shop will probably find some reason to do more work. Duh, it's what they do.

I have no doubt that you're 100% correct about machine shops. I definitely take your advice to heart on this one. I guess I jsut typically lean towards the "doomsday" scenario on these issues and then eventually talk myself back off of the precipice. Perhaps it's the pessimist/realist in me :eek:.

As such, my more "realistic" plan is to have the cylinders honed. Seeing as I already have a naked block, don't have hone, and don't own a drill press, I'm just going to take her to someone who does. You can't tell from the pictures, but there are some obvious scratches on cyl #3 (partly due to my own stupidity), and some rust/buildup on the walls of the other cyls.

In the end you may be spot on. Perhaps re-ringing/lapping valves is all I need to do, and then she'd run for a 1000 hours, but then again . . . if I "just" re-ring and end-up with a stuck ring, that'd put me right back at square-one. I'm merely weighing the cost and benefits of different scenarios hoping to find one that leaves me with a clean working engine. :)

Thanks for the input. . . your comments kinda remind me of something my dad would say - and that's not a bad thing at all. . . . :D
Pete
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine? #46  
Re-ringing won't make it any more or less prone to getting stuck in the future. That's up to the (ahem) operator. If you park it, fog it. Keep it dry and seal the exhaust and intake it won't get stuck.

You don't "need" a fancy hone and drill press. You can get a dingle berry that will fit on your hand drill at LOW SPEED and you just thrust it in and out fast 2 times and check. Repeat until you have a slight cross hatch pattern. The cross hatch pattern is there to help the rings seat. You can check the cylinders for taper with an old ring. Insert the ring at the top of the bore and square it up with an old piston. Measure the ring gap. Push it down 1/2 way and repeat the measurement. Push it down the rest of the way and repeat. Obviously, you want 0 taper, but you can live for a LONG time with some. The dingle berry will get off the surface rust, so I would not worry about that.

Can you "catch" your finger nail in the scratch? Nope, barely, a bit, yeah, Ouch! tore my nail! Pick your answer.

Shows what a Dingle Berry hone looks like --- correct name is ball brush hone.
Feature - Choosing and Using Ball-Style Hones - 08/06

You can buy your own on e-scam or similar places for about 25 bucks. You need one for a 3.90" bore. One good for a 4" bore is perfect.
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?
  • Thread Starter
#47  
Can you "catch" your finger nail in the scratch? Nope, barely, a bit, yeah, Ouch! tore my nail! Pick your answer.

I would describe the scratches as barely able to "catch" a finger nail. I can basically feel that they are there. Here's how the scratches look in a close-up of Cyl #2. It's also fairly apparent that there is an oil ring imprint rusted into the cyl wall.
DSCN3026.jpg
These ring imprints are also pretty obvious a little bit deeper in cyl #1 as well, suggesting that this was probably the root cause of my stuck engine.
DSCN3028.jpg
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine? #48  
Barely? I think I might try to hone that out.. toss rings in, and then go back in with a new set of bearing sheels the same size it already has and see what I got after hand lapping the valves.. cheap and not too bad a job if the cyls are not terribly OOR.. might get another good decade of use before you have to start thinking about other things on her..

soundguy
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?
  • Thread Starter
#49  
Barely? I think I might try to hone that out.. toss rings in, and then go back in with a new set of bearing sheels the same size it already has and see what I got after hand lapping the valves.. cheap and not too bad a job if the cyls are not terribly OOR.. might get another good decade of use before you have to start thinking about other things on her..

soundguy


Hey, you guys are the experts :eek:. Maybe it just depends on how long my nails are, or if I've been chewin' on 'em??

So, let me get this straight. Soundguy, you seem to be implying (perhaps sarcastically?) that the "scratches" are pretty minor?

And I have to ask, what's OOR? Is it "Out of Range" - as in - if the cyls are still fairly round, untapered, and NOT OOR, things should be fine?

Gotta love love my freebie digital camera. A picture may not be worth a thousand words, but it might just save us from having to write them. :rolleyes:
 
   / To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine? #50  
OOR - I think he means Out Of Round. When cylinders wear they get larger at the top and also egg shaped.

Those may be on the edge of nasty, but for 20-40 bucks you could get a hone and try to fix them up and see what you get. That would only cost you a small amount of time and money.

I blew the big bucks on mine as there were some serious gouges in one cylinder where a broken ring had wedged between the piston and wall after some nimrod had used ether incorrectly to start it. Grrrrr. 8500 hours and the cylinders were still in spec for stock pistons, except for that gouge. Naturally, some smuck had hit the crank too. And thats with one rod 91 grams lighter than the rest!

Short story is you can probably get away with honing, ringing and replace bearings. Full rebuild is better and will last longer, but is the added cost worth it?

jb
 
 
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