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  1. #1
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    Jul 2009
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    Default Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    My B414 has an engine problem. I was moving logs around in the yard.

    After working for about 10 minutes after re-fueling, the engine began to race. I pulled the fuel stop and throttled down, but the engine continued to run. I finally put the tractor in neutral and lifted the hood to access the injector pump. I confirmed that the linkages from the throttle and the fuel stop were still connected.

    At this point the engine finally stopped. I checked the fuel control linkages more closely, and then tried to restart. No joy. The engine at first seemed to be seized. The starter could not budge the engine.

    I discovered that I could use a wrench on the front pulley on the crankshaft to tun the crankshaft back, but only 180 degrees, and no further. The starter was then able to move the engine, but only 180 degreees, no more.

    I removed the rocker cover to observe the valve train as the crankshaft turns. There is no noticable movement of the rockers at all.

    From the parts breakdowns on the engine the linkage between the camshaft and the crankshaft is neither timing chain, nor timing belt, but gear drive.

    I expect that the no-start problem is that the timing gear train to the camshaft is broken. As a result of this, the crankshaft can only turn until a piston meets an open valve.
    Does anyone have experience with this?

  2. #2
    Veteran Member MHarryE's Avatar
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    Feb 2009
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    1,422
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    Northeastern Minnesota
    Tractor
    JD 7720; Kubota M135GX, NH TS115A; JD 6230; Kubota L5740

    Default

    I'm not sure which Perkins engine you have. My experience is with 1995 & later 4 & 6 cylinder engines with either 1.0 or 1.1 liter per cylinder displacement. They have a gear drive like you explain. The crankshaft gear drives an idler gear on top and the oil pump drive gear underneath. The idler gear runs the camshaft to one side and the injection pump and water pump to the other. An auxiliary drive on that side can fit a hydraulic pump that will run off the idler gear.

    The standard idler gear is fitted with a bushing that gets its lube from the engine oil. There is an optional high power drive for larger auxiliary loads - it is fitted with roller bearings.

    I have seen the idler gear bushing wear so there was so much clearance that the camshaft gear jumped time and the pistons whacked the valves, but the result was slower than what you talk about. I mean the engines ran rougher and rougher until they stopped with valve parts imbedded in piston tops. Also, the valve train was still moving when you rotated the engine by hand - up to the point where it hit solid.

    Sounds like it is time for the front cover to come off which o some of the engines I'm talking about is not very easy as the crank pulley has to come off if it is the one piece cover with the shaft seal. Then you can see what is turning and what isn't.

    As to the fuel pump problem tat started it all, I've got no idea. It sounds like an internal linkage failure but all the pumps I worked with have electrical shut offs on Stanadyne or Bosch pumps. I can't recall a runaway engine but we had to have one in the operator manual. I once suggested putting in the manual to use the cap the dealer gave you to cover the air intake but Safety wouldn't buy that. On our power to run engines we had a cut off switch by the pump and our power to stop engines had a manual override on the pump.
    JD7720; KubotaM135GX; NH TS115A; JD6230; KubotaL5740

  3. #3
    Platinum Member
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    Feb 2012
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    837
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    sioux city, ia
    Tractor
    Oliver 1855, Case 1840, Cub 1550

    Default Re: Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    Did you check oil and coolant level, if crankcase is overfull, may have fuel, or coolant in it, causing the runaway. You said problem started 10 min after refueling, check for water in fuel, water wont compress, it will hydrolock, or gas in fuel? If it hydrolocked,it may have bent or broke a rod or crank.

    Dave

  4. #4
    New Member
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    Default Re: Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    The engine is a Perkins 4.212 from the 1960's.

    The manual fuel stop ought to have cut off the fuel supply.

    The coolant level is full, with the usual green colour.

    The oil level could be over full. The level did not show very well on the dipstick with the engine still warm. I suppose that if fuel was leaking into the crankcase, and if that could have been a source of continuing fuel supply, then that mystery of the engine continuing to run with the fuel stop pulled is solved.

    I have some level of concern about gasoline in the fuel supply because this was the first fuel fill since my bulk tank was re-supplied. I do not want another failure in another diesel engine that I might be able to prevent. I will be checking fuel samples from both the bulk tank and the tractor's fuel tank before any othe vehicle is filled from the bulk tank.

    If pulling the front cover is the next step then I think the tractor needs professional repair. My facilities here are limited. I think that pulling the cover could only be done with the engine lifted out of the tractor. Correct?

    I can still drain the engine oil to see if there is diesel in the oil, or if broken metal pieces show up.

  5. #5
    Silver Member
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    Apr 2009
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    Default Re: Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    I would pull the injectors to make sure on didnt stick open and flood the cylinder.

  6. #6
    New Member
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    Default Re: Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    If an injector did stick open, would the fuel remain in the cylinder overnight?

    Also, further, I have been looking very closely at the rockers as the crankshaft is moved. With better lighting I am able to see movement of the rockers. So, timing may have slipped, but at least is still moving.

    I have begun loosening the injectors 1 by one. Trying to turn the engine between injectors. This is a slow process. I have to leave the job for a bit. Company has arrived.

    I will post my progress later.

  7. #7
    Platinum Member
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    Feb 2012
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    837
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    sioux city, ia
    Tractor
    Oliver 1855, Case 1840, Cub 1550

    Default Re: Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    If it started after refueling, i would check fuel, does your tractor fuel tank, have a drain petcock? If so drain in glass jar and let set, water should go to bottom and be vissible. Water is hard on injectors, pump and engine. If there is water in the fuel, it will feel dry when rubbed between your fingers. Good luck!

    Dave

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    I will be checking out the fuel tomorrow via the drain petcock.

    In the meantime I have found something disapointing. The oil pan contains debris including bits of piston and part of an oil ring. This is not good.

    My current theory is that the injector pump has been leaking fuel into the oil system. The oil is thin, with more volume of oil than I added originally. I suspect that the injector pump deteriorated until it could no longer control fuel flow, even the fuel stop did not stop the engine. I have been told previously that this can happen, referring to another diesel engine in my pickup. With the oil contaminated wilil diesel, the racing engine was damaged. This is my theory of the damage sequence.

    This breakdown seems to be more than I personally can handle. I expect that the repair cost will exceed other alternatives.

    My thanks to those who helped with their suggestions.

  9. #9
    Elite Member Don87's Avatar
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    Massey Ferguson GC2400

    Default Re: Engine problem B414 with Perkins Diesel

    Sorry to hear of the problems. Keep us posted on your progress.
    Don

    MF GC2400, FEL, 60in.MMM, 5ft. Cultivator, Single Bottom Plow, Bush Hog RTC48 tiller, MF 2360 front mount snowblower, 5ft backblade. BXpanded Piranha toothbar.

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