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  1. #1
    Member
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    Jun 2012
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    Pembroke, ME
    Tractor
    International 460 Utility

    Default IH 460 wont start

    I've been having trouble for awhile now. Everything was running fine in July, but tore it down (gas tank, dash, throttle, etc) to pull out the power steering gear assembly because it was leaking heavily. Finally got the gear assembly back from my mechanic at the end of November, and after struggling got it to run for an afternoon in December. I haven't been able to start it since. I've tried to only work on it during the warmer days (40+) since I don't have a shop to work in.

    -Turns over, but doesn't fire (at all).
    - light grey smoke does come out the exhaust manifold (no exhaust pipe/muffler installed at the moment)
    -Tank does have gas, gas is getting to the carb (after that I don't know, I'm scared to tinker with the carb)
    -Battery is new

    Things I've tried
    Replace: spark plugs, spark plug wires, points, Coil, Resister, All the wiring (which I hope I didn't screw up, there by creating another problem, and covering up the fix of the old problem)

    Could there be a wiring problem where the starter turns over fine but the plugs aren't getting spark?
    The starter is obviously getting grounded, the coil is grounded, is there anything else?
    I don't have the alternator wired yet. I figured I'd tackle that after this problem is fixed. It not being hooked up isn't causing a problem is it?
    Could the timing be off? Like when I removed the distributor could I have screwed up the timing?

    I regret trying to redo the wiring without the engine running, so I could change one thing at a time so I knew I didn't make a mistake. I'm a beginer when it comes to anything automotive, but I'm a real bonehead when it comes to electrical work.

    Getting frustrated!

  2. #2
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    355
    Location
    Stone Mountain, GA
    Tractor
    Case 1210, Mitsubishi D2050

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    The basics of a gas engine are it takes compression (with valves that are working) so that it sucks in gas/air (requires working carb) and at the right time on the compression stroke the spark ignites the fuel mixture. So there are a number of things that come to mind:
    1) Spark weak, non-existant, or timed incorrectly. Assuming that the points are gapped correctly and the condenser isn't shorted out, you should have a spark. The rotor should be pointing at the #1 spark plug wire terminal when the #1 cylinder is at TDC on a compression stroke. The rest of the plug wires should be sorted out to make sure the rest are in the order that they should be for that engine.
    2) Fuel is not making it's way through the carburetor correctly and mixing with the incoming air. If the ignition system is working, then you can put a small amount of gas inside of the air cleaner in the intake pipe and then cranking the engine should get you something for 1-5 seconds. If the engine fires briefly, you know that you have a carb problem. I would send the carb to a carb rebuilder and get it boiled out and rebuilt.

    Good luck!

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    28
    Location
    Pembroke, ME
    Tractor
    International 460 Utility

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    Thanks for the response Thomas. If I smell gas coming from exhaust manifold, is that a good indication that its a spark and not a fuel problem?

    I looked in my shop manual and in order to check the timing (#1 cylinder at TDC) Id have to pull off the radiator to make sure the Camshaft pulley and the timing gear cover are alined. That's a whole lot of work for and old rusty tractor. Is there another way to check? The distributor shaft that rotates the rotor fit into a a long slot.... so there are only two ways install it, if I installed it wrong, would rotating the shaft 180 degrees potentially fix the problem? In other words, if the firing order is 153624, the only wrong way to install the rotor would be if it were trying to fire 624153 when the cylinders where doing the exact opposite. I might be in way over my head. At this point I would have it towed to the mechanic, but its inaccessible at this point in the winter.

    I've tried using either in the air cleaner already. Didn't fire.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member SSdoxie's Avatar
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    Jun 2010
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    2,175
    Location
    Cumberland Plateau, TN
    Tractor
    Bobcat CT225

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    Here is one way to find TDC without removing the timing cover:
    Remove the spark plugs and take off the valve cover. Use a wrench on front of crankshaft and rotate the engine by hand until both rocker arms for #1 cylinder are setting level with each other (both valves closed). Use a stiff wire through the spark plug hole to feel top of the piston, then slowly rotate the engine both directions to find when piston is exact Top Center. This will give you TDC on compression stroke.

    Have you checked to see if there is any spark at the plug?
    Dennis

    CT225 w/7TL QA FEL, 60"tooth dirt bucket, 68" smooth bucket, Pallet Forks, Bale Spear. Hydrualic top llin, QH, 48 RC, 60" tiller, Angle blade, Landscape rake, Carry-all, Post hole auger.

  5. #5
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    355
    Location
    Stone Mountain, GA
    Tractor
    Case 1210, Mitsubishi D2050

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    Hi -

    Yes, if you smell gas coming form the exhaust, it means that gas is getting into the engine. If there has been no sign of life then it is definitely an ignition problem. If it tried to start at the beginning of cranking, then you may have flooded it with too much gas from the carb. The way to tell if it is flooded is to unscrew a plug and see if it is wet with gas.

    Assuming that your carb is not dumping so much gas in the engine that it is flooding (which is not too likely but possible), then I would concentrate on the distributor. DO NOT MESS WITH THE CAM TIMING! You do not need to look at cam timing unless someone worked on the engine and did the cam timing wrong.

    As mentioned by SSdoxie, figure out where top dead center for #1 (the front cylinder) is. Slowly turn the engine over with a wrench or flex bar and socket, and watch the valve action for #1. You should see the intake valve close, and then about a half turn later (180 or so degrees) you will be at top dead center when the piston is at it's highest. Hopefully you can shine a light through the spark plug hole and see, but if not get a cheap TDC tool at Harbor Freight or eBay and use it to determine TDC. As a confirmation for TDC, you should see a mark on the harmonic balancer line up with a pointer or mark on the front of the engine.

    Drop the distributor into place. Remove the cap. Note where the rotor is pointing. If it is pointing close to where the #1 wire is attached, you arre good. If not, does pulling it out, turning the rotor 180 degrees, and dropping it back in place get you closer help? If not, don't sweat it, put it in place as close as you can, rotate the distributor to point to a terminal on the cap, and that becomes #1. If the firing order is 153624, then the wires would be 53624 clockwise the rest of the way around the distributor cap.

    Get a charger on the battery - hopefully one that puts out 50+ amps and can help to run the starter.

    Take a piece of chalk and chalk up the timing marks on the crankshaft harmonic balancer and pointer so they are easier to see.

    Hook up a timing light, hopefully an inductive one that just clamps around the #1 plug and get someone to turn the key to start while you watch the spark on the crankshaft timing marks to see where it is firing. Typical gas engines fire a few degrees before TDC, typically 4-8 degrees, but check your manual as they should have the spec there.

    BTW - I *always* use the excuse of working on equipment as a reason to buy tools, but that's just me. So you should own a TDC stop and inductive timing tool when doing this work. (grin)

    Good luck!

  6. #6
    Epic Contributor Soundguy's Avatar
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    ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    get a can of carb cleaner and start fluid.

    pull plugs.. spray celan with carb cleaner.. dry with a aper towel. reinsert.

    remove air tube to carb... set throttle to mid way.

    run a hot wire from battery to primary of ignition coil.. put her in neutal and block clutch.. double check.

    spin her over with 1 plug out and check for spark. plug threads need to be touching block or head.. hookup with gator clips if needed.

    if you hve sparlk.. put it ion.. crank over and give it some start fluid into carb.. see if she cranks on start fluid.. post back

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    28
    Location
    Pembroke, ME
    Tractor
    International 460 Utility

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    I had tried to check the spark plugs last week, but it didn't occur to me that they had to be grounded I'll give that a shot.

    The plugs are new (fresh out of the box).

    Tried start fluid, didn't work

    So after I check to see if their is spark on them, I'll check the timing. In order to take off the valve cover, I have to take off all the sheet metal, gas tank, dash, and throttle again. Hopefully tomorrow's temps get higher than 6 degrees out.

    Before I do, I might post a picture to show how I've got my electrical hooked up (coil, resistor, etc) maybe I've made a mistake there someone can point out. Everyone likes pictures... right????

  8. #8
    Epic Contributor Soundguy's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Central florida
    Tractor
    ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    if it did not even 'pop' on start fluid.. you have no spark.

    hot wire the coil. bat to coil primary and check spark...

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    Tractor
    International 460 Utility

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    Ok, so tried testing the spark plugs... no go. No spark. I have one idea that doesn't make complete sense, but I though I would check back here before I tried anything.I have the resistor hooked up through the push button switch, so the plugs might not be getting any spark if the button isn't being pushed???? But even still, while I'm pushing it, I don't get a spark either. So I have no idea what it could be. Also, I'll ask again. Do I need the alternator hooked up to make it start? I didn't think so, but I figured I'd ask again.

    Here are pictures of anything, if you see anything odd that sticks out, please say so. Please excuse the rough wiring, most of the crampon connections that were there came off because I've been pulling everything off to check for different problems, and trying different things. -p1111412-jpg-p1111414-jpg-p1111416-jpg-p1111417-jpg-p1111418-jpg-untitled-jpg

    Also note the wiring diagram, with what I'm using for wire colors, and what "parts" I don't have.

  10. #10
    Gold Member
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    Jul 2008
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    371
    Location
    Maine
    Tractor
    2-Kubota B7100s

    Default Re: IH 460 wont start

    Make a Jumper wire with an alligator clip on each end. Remove all wires from the coil + side. Tie them back or tape the ends so they can't touch any thing. Connect the jumper wire between the + terminal of the battery and the + terminal of the coil. Pull the end of the coil wire (thick black wire like spark plug wire) from the center of the distributor and hold it about 1/4 inch from a clean metal surface on the engine. Crank engine and check for a spark that will jump. If no spark you have a problem with your coil or the points & condenser or wiring between them. If it does spark the put coil wire back into center of distributor and repeat spark check at spark plugs. If no spark at plugs then you have a problem with the distributor rotor or cap. If you have spark then put the spark plugs back into engine and try to start. It it does not start then you have either an ignition timing problem or a fuel or compression problem.
    Last edited by KubotaSam; 01-21-2013 at 09:40 AM. Reason: spelling

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