Bad Power Trac Experience

[Rara Avis]

I was facinated with their website...did a search for Power-Trac and found this forum...did not even know it was here...after reading thru the threads...I'll stay with my John Deeres...too bad, because conceptually it looked like a neat piece of equipment...especially the trailer setup...but if this is their idea of warranty...I wish them luck...Even TSC has a better deal with their Chinese Tractor...

 

[Barryh]

I keep reading the PT forums because I think it would be an extremely useful smaller machine for my place. But I keep reading these horror stories. Not that many, but relative to the small number of PT users out there, significant. I keep waiting for a big company (ideally Kubota or JD) to make a knockoff of the PT that works reliably, has dealers and a real warranty. Whenever that day comes, I'll probably be first in line to get one.

With all of this discussion, I included stated Power Trac's customer support needs some rethinking and I stand by what I said earlier in this thread. If Kubota or Deere ever does come out with a similar product, you can bet the price will also be twice as much. The PT has some problems here and there, but try finding a tractor this versatile and with these capabilities at such a great price. For thier size the 180 / 422 / 425 are powerful little machines.

For all of the problems a few have had, there are many PT's owners out there including myself, with 0 problems. Even with low hours mine has already paid for itself. If properly maintained I feel it will give me many more years of service. In fact the way the PT is put together with basic hydraulic components. You can find parts just about anywhere. You could replace and rebuild the PT once it age's and keep it for a life time if you choose to. The basic body is almost bullet proof.

Dealer support is great, but it also comes with a larger price tag. If you are not to mechanically inclined or don't like taking things apart to see what makes them tick, then by all means dealer support is a must.

I think what you are seeing here, are a group of guys helping each other work the bugs out of an other wise unique and hard working utility tractor. With exception of a few really bad experiences like poor Chris, and the jury is still out on that one. We are, our own support in most cases. With out the support here on this forum. I would have never bought my PT in the first place.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Depending upon what you need the machine for, search TBN for Ventrac and Steiner. They are somewhat similar.

Thanks. I was aware of Ventrac and they didn't look like what I'm interested in, but I had never heard of Steiner before and their utilimax looks very, very interesting.

Barry - I hear you, and I'm sure PT is good for people who are mechanically inclined and non-commercial users. I just know I have the bad luck of getting more lemons than I should, and I don't abuse my equipment or fail to maintain it. I will say I really can't see how someone could buy a PT for commercial use with the lack of dealers and the potential delays in repairs. There was a different thread with a tale of woe on that.

 

[KentT]

Thanks. I was aware of Ventrac and they didn't look like what I'm interested in, but I had never heard of Steiner before and their utilimax looks very, very interesting.

Barry - I hear you, and I'm sure PT is good for people who are mechanically inclined and non-commercial users. I just know I have the bad luck of getting more lemons than I should, and I don't abuse my equipment or fail to maintain it. I will say I really can't see how someone could buy a PT for commercial use with the lack of dealers and the potential delays in repairs. There was a different thread with a tale of woe on that.

If you're willing to pay somewhere around twice the price (maybe more)for dealer support, commercial/industrial quality, then here ya go:

Gehl Company - Compact Equipment for Construction and Agriculture

We have at least one poster here who bought one of those used, and modifies and uses PT attachments on it....

 

[stray]

Good point Kent. Eather I could not find the price on there web site or they are ashamed to post it.

 

[SnowRidge]

They have dealers. Other than car makers, who are required by law to post their "suggested" prices, most manufacturers seem to leave it up to the dealer to state the price.

I noticed that they had a pretty good set of specs, including a stability figure, if I remember correctly.

 

[horse7]

I like the Power Trac general design direction. The unreliability is an issue, which is why I keep reading about them but not buying (at least, not yet-- one has to admit the cost tradeoff, 2x the cost for rock solid reliability would not fly for me). It would be nice if they would redesign their machines one by one with an emphasis on ease of repair, considering that much of the repairs will be done by owners using manuals that leave a lot to be desired. Designing for ease of repairs ought to reduce their cost of manufacturing; considering the rate of early field fails their mfg test fails must be pretty high too.

 

[Marks481]

The unreliability is an issue, which is why I keep reading about them but not buying.

I think that you are drawing conclusions from a few anecdotes that you have read here. Sure, there are two or three unhappy owners, but by and large most people like the machines. They are built like a tank (no stamped sheet metal or plastic cowlings in sight), and use off-the-shelf parts that you can get replacements for at any hydraulic shop (or easily order on line). The mechanical aspects are simple, and any problems easily repaired (although learning to MIG or TIG weld might be a good idea in the long run, mostly because then you can manufacture implements yourself).

It would be nice if they would redesign their machines one by one with an emphasis on ease of repair.

Not quite sure what you mean. I think the machines are simplicity incarnate, and are very easy to repair. The top of the engine compartment folds off, exposing essentially all of the engine and components. Undo two bolts, and the gas tank lifts off, allowing you easy access to all of the hydraulics. I think the machines WERE designed for ease of construction.... and repair!

I think that power-trac might want to re-think their warrenty response. In the case of the failed engine, I would expect them to have a robin representative calling you offerring to help. Jack Robin, where are you? I have had a few minor issues, and PT came through with shining colors in all those instances.

What I really like about the PT is that it the attachments are relatively inexpensive (the Ventrac and Steiner attachments are 2-3x the cost), making the CUT very useful. I put in three planters around my house (including planting 14 bushes) in about 6 hours of work. DUg the planters out with the 4n1 bucket, and dug the holes for the bushes with the auger. I have a bad back, and wouldn't have even thought about doing it without the tractor... and it probably would have taken me 10 times as long (not counting the extra time I would have spent lying on an ice pack). I love my PT-422.

 

[toy]

I like the Power Trac general design direction. The unreliability is an issue, which is why I keep reading about them but not buying (at least, not yet-- one has to admit the cost tradeoff, 2x the cost for rock solid reliability would not fly for me). It would be nice if they would redesign their machines one by one with an emphasis on ease of repair, considering that much of the repairs will be done by owners using manuals that leave a lot to be desired. Designing for ease of repairs ought to reduce their cost of manufacturing; considering the rate of early field fails their mfg test fails must be pretty high too.

I have been reading this thread and neglecting to add an input, first I would like to say to Chris that I understand his feelings about pt receiving a new piece of equipment and have a major break down is a bummer and having the makers of that piece of equipment not show more zeal to see that this break down resolved as soon as possible. My pt 425 is about 3 or 4 years and had one break down and that was the boom roll over and they repaired it and I was real pleased with their service in this instance. I have noticed someone had a brush hog frame to crack and they repaired it seemed like a real easy repair most of the problems that pt owners have had seem to be problems that they have been able to repair without too much expense and the repairs have been reported here and the fix is also described here which is a big help for future repairs that mine might need. There have been some fixes that I might not have done it that way but if it works for them that is good. The appearance of ease of repair for my pt is one of the reason that I bought mine. When the pt company told me if I had engine repairs for the first two or three years [I don't remember the warranty length right now] that I should take it to a Kohler dealer for repair that did set me back for a little bit but I knew that there was dealers near me that sold and repaired Kohler engines and hydraulic shops around that could repair any hydraulic problem that I might have.The engine doesn't look too difficult to pull, the wheel motors I believe have 4 bolts and two hoses to take off to remove them that don't seem too complicated for a do it yourselffer to trade out parts, the pumps and other motors don't seem too difficult to take off either [might get a big surprise if I ever have to do it myself] I hope I don't have to do any of these for a long time to come. I have saw Kohler command pro 25 hp engines for around 2,000 bucks, wheel motors between 3 or 4 hundred bucks each , the pumps ouch I don't know how much they would cost but pricey I guess. Now if you get one of the dealer supported machines the warranty will also die and you will have to repair them eventually also. The hydraulic pumps on them would pricey also , I don't think repairing the transmission on one of them would be something that I would want to do myself and having someone come out to location and do it would be pretty pricey I'll bet. Those big rear tires on some of the other tractors would be expensive also I'd bet. What I'm trying to say is no matter which one you get eventually you will have a break down and I believe In the long run the pt would be just as cheap to repair if not cheaper. I know that since I got my pt I have learned a lot and I would say that a lot of you have seen your skill level rise also. I don't regret for one minute getting my pt it has done every thing that I have asked of it. I know it has its limitations as it is a smaller machine, the 1430would do more but it would cost more also. For the same price I don't believe I could have got a tractor with as many attachments as I got with the pt and the ease of changing out implements is a real good selling point. If pt offered all of the support that other tractors do the price would be a lot higher also.I do feel for Chris and his predicament and I hope he can get it resolved without too much problems and that he to will learn to love his pt as I do and will post his resolution for this crisis so that we can all learn. I would think that robin would make good on their engine failure, I think robin had a problem with their engines in the pt several years ago [I think it was a coil or something] and they made it right.

 

[BobRip]

I see the negative comments on this thread (and now some more positive ones) and had to comment. I am extremely pleased with my PT422. I have over 600 hours and no major problems. I feel the PT is the best money I have ever spent. I also have a large number of attachments driven by the low cost of each and the easy change and the ability to make my own. Several of my neighbors have tractors and yet I have spent much more time helping then with projects than they have helped me. I did get help once when I was stuck in the swamp, other wise I help them. Again this is driven by the relatively inexpensive attachment and easy change.
You can look at other threads here with people having trouble with their brand name tractor and having megatrouble getting it resolved. So I think the rock solid tractors are not so perfect.
My daughter said it well, the PT is an "Open System Tractor". You can be very independent from the manufacturer and do all of the work yourself. If you are not this kind of person, then pay twice or three times as much and get only one or two attachments.

As far as support I think it is normally very good. When you call the support line you get the factory expert, not somebody trained by the factory expert. Even worse for most products you usually get somebody who is reading information off of a computer screen and knows very little about the product.

I would recommend that if you are going to buy at PT you should be reasonably handy with tools, engines, etc. You do know up front that the warranty is parts only. This suits my personality and skills and I suspect most of the people who bought PT. Personally I am tired of products with "No User Serviceable Parts".

I will start a new thread and see who would not buy a PT if they had to do it over again.

 

[SnowRidge]

Don't want to be a Pollyanna, but I've only had:

1. Leaking gas tank with stripped screws and gouged plastic at day one. PT's response, "We didn't build the gas tank." Self repair by through bolting the gas cap neck and applying a lot of sealant.

2. Misaligned PTO hose mounting tube. PTO hook up was almost impossible. Sales noticed the problem at the factory prior to delivery and glossed over it. Self repair by shimming hose fitting.

3. Parking brake wouldn't work at delivery due to a cable set screw striking the chassis. Self repaired by replacing the square head set screws with socket head versions.

4. Blown engine at 110 hours. Had to pull the engine myself and take it to a Kohler warranty dealer, as Kohler warranty did not cover remove and reinstall.

5. Hot running, which almost certainly caused number 4 above, and run on at shut down. Traced to PT built muffler, which I replaced with a Kohler muffler. No more run on. Kohler still running.

6. Finish mower bearings went out at approximately 200 hours, taking a spindle with them. Hardly commercial quality. Self repair.

7. Two leaking wheel motors. Bought a spare wheel motor and a rebuild kit.

8. Cracked brush mower deck at maybe 100 hours at most, possibly less. Self repair. See the current thread.

9. Innumerable mower flats due to tires rolling off of rims. The fix is to switch to solid tires or run pressures way above normal.

10. Constant oily mess in hydraulic tank area due to the tank being vented through a plain cap instead of a filtered cap.

11. Several main wheel flats due to having valve stems on both sides of each wheel. These are flats waiting to happen as stuff gets caught between the frame and the wheel, ripping the valve stem right out. Fixed by installing shorty metal valve stems on the inside of the wheels.

The machine has under 400 hours. The funny thing is this: The only thing I absolutely hate about it is the gas tank. There is no fuel shut off, and the high fill is flat instead of angled, which makes it very difficult to fuel up without spilling any gas. I never refuel while it is hot.

 

[SpringHollow]

I have owned a John Deere, an Allis Chalmers (?), and two Ford/New Hollands over the years before getting a PT. I have always bought used. In my mind, there is no question those machines (especially my New Hollands) were more reliable than a PT. The biggest repair I ever had on one of them was having to replace a water pump or alternator. If my living depended upon limiting down time and those machines would do what I needed, that is what I would probably buy.

Having said that, there is no way I would give up my PT. It is so much more versatile, implements are so easy to change, it is extremely stable, and it has significantly less impact on my ground that I end up using it much more in a year than I ever used my other tractors. I realized before buying the PT that I would have to do more repairs. But on a PT, you can do more repairs yourself. I would never think of rebuilding the transmission on the 4WD CUTS I had. On a PT, you do not have those worries. And as someone mentioned, tires are much cheaper!

All tractors have their pluses and minuses. That's why the purchase decision can be so difficult. I bought my PT without ever having seen or driven one because from reading this forum, I knew it would meet my needs. My only concern was whether I was getting the correct model.

Ken

 

[MossRoad]

I will summarize my long winded post below the first paragraph...

A PT is a great tool platform that is easily maintained, repaired and customized by someone that has basic shop skills. If you buy one of these machines, be prepared to be your own mechanic from day one. There is no dealer support. Take the PT for what it is and what it can be. Get your support systems lined up before you purchase. Make sure they are there. If you cannot find these support systems locally, are not comfortable working on machinery, have doubts about your abilities, want or need someone else to do your major repairs, and realize that you will get aggravated by what you expect from the factory, but won't get, then you should be looking at a different machine.


In my opinion, there is nothing that comes close to the PTs versatility for the price. Nothing even close. The PT is a great tool platform that is easily customized and easily repairable by anyone with basic shop skills. I've told people this time and time again. I've also discouraged my share of folks from buying a PT and going with a machine with dealer support. When I purchased PT was pretty clear that any engine warrantly problems would have to go through Kohler and any hydraulic pump/motor problems would be dealt with either by PT or the pump/motor manufacturer on a case by case basis. I could ship it back to PT for repair, too(yikes, that would be expensive). But it was stated and I was warned by old guys here on TBN, too, that I had no dealer support of any kind. I was O.K with that from the beginning, so I purchased. I can weld and the PT is solid steel. No problem. I enjoy working on and understand how small engines work.The Kohler engine was tried and true. So I looked around my town for Kohler engine support before I purchase. I found a great one for parts! They also have an internet presence. C & C Distributors Inc. - Home We also have a few good hydraulic shops if I need consultation. But my biggest hydraulic resources have been Burden Sales Surplus Center - Hydraulics, Engines, Electrical and More and Baileynet.com: Main Page. And I like to think that I have helped encourage discussion on the PTs here on TBN. Without this resource, many of us would be out there on our own. What a great bunch of helpful folks! And it is not just the folks in the PT forum. Many TBN members with different tractors are willing to offer support and advice. These machines attract the tinkerers. That's because people see the potential in the design of the machine.

You know, I have had no major problems with my PT425 in almost 6 years( only have about 300 hours on it). No more problems than I have had with any other piece of heavy equipment I have owned or operated. Especially with the beatings I have given this machine out on our property. However, I cannot ignore that many folks have had lots of problems. Some very minor and some very major. I know the feeling of spending a large amount of money, only to have something fail way before it should fail. It sucks. And while it has been pointed out that many folks come to TBN searching for repair tips on all brands of tractors, many folks purchase a PT after doing research here on TBN, then have a failure within just a few hours of operation. Just a few things to list that PT could take care of are armoring the hoses where they pass rub points, cleaning out the fuel tank and hydraulic tanks after assembly, the brush hog deck cracking issue, etc... theses are real problems that could be solved easily and inexpensively and are frustrating to a new owner. It does not help PTs image at all. However, it appears that they are doing fine as a business, so someone is buying their machines. Probably more commercial users than home owners. I know that there is a local landscaper in my hometown that has two PT400 series and one 1430. I see them being trailered all over town behind their trucks. I know of several commercial users here on TBN that make money with the machines. Something has to be right about them. I've beat the heck out of mine and the only problems I can blame on the factory are:
1. The parking brake is too tight.
2. The brush hog deck crack.
3. The mower decks could use tubes in the castor wheels, but I have found that if I over inflate them, they don't pop the bead unless I twist them against an imovable object. They should be solid wheels on the brush hog.

I am very satisfied with what I got for the money and would purchase one again.

 

[catsco]

My pt 425 is about 3 or 4 years and had one break down and that was the boom roll over and they repaired it and I was real pleased with their service in this instance.

Glad to hear you got a good repair and service.

I had the same problem at about 220 hours (1.5 years).

The new part was a thicker wall tube. PT was totally unsympathetic about what I feel was a design flaw - after buying a tractor package that costs more than my new car and then having to pay another $475 (plus time to order the part, wait for it to come, and then find someone to do the welding) is customer DISservice.

Is there a way to encourage PT to do better?

People who see my PT are curious and think that the idea is great, but I'm conflicted when they say "I'd like to buy one." as I wouldn't want to lose all my friends by recommending a PT at this point.

The good news is that the PT will probably never have any rust problems as all factory hose fittings and cylinders are installed to leak from day one.

And the fuel that spews out of the tank (when the machine is warmed up and the temp is above 60 degrees) built into the cover washes away the excess oil from leaks.

 

[SnowRidge]

People who see my PT are curious and think that the idea is great, but I'm conflicted when they say "I'd like to buy one." as I wouldn't want to lose all my friends by recommending a PT at this point.

I had someone ask me about mine the other day. It went something like this....

Other Guy: Hey that's neat. Where can I get one of those?

SnowRidge: Tazewell, Virginia. Do you own a welder?

Other Guy: No.

SnowRidge: Sorry, you aren't eligible to buy one.

He knew I was kidding. We had already talked about the repair issues.

 

[RegL]

I had someone ask me about mine the other day. It went something like this....

Other Guy: Hey that's neat. Where can I get one of those?

SnowRidge: Tazewell, Virgiania. Do you own a welder?

Other Guy: No.

SnowRidge: Sorry, you aren't eligible to buy one.

He knew I was kidding. We had already talked about the repair issues.

I have a 1430 with about 1000 hrs. that I use commercially and when other contractors ask about it, I don't recommend it either. But it's because I'm the only one who has a PT around here and I don't want any competition.

 

[MossRoad]

I have a 1430 with about 1000 hrs. that I use commercially and when other contractors ask about it, I don't recommend it either. But it's because I'm the only one who has a PT around here and I don't want any competition.

hee hee hee

 

[SnowRidge]

Don't want to be a Pollyanna, but I've only had:

1. Leaking gas tank with stripped screws and gouged plastic at day one. PT's response, "We didn't build the gas tank." Self repair by through bolting the gas cap neck and applying a lot of sealant.

2. Misaligned PTO hose mounting tube. PTO hook up was almost impossible. Sales noticed the problem at the factory prior to delivery and glossed over it. Self repair by shimming hose fitting.

3. Parking brake wouldn't work at delivery due to a cable set screw striking the chassis. Self repaired by replacing the square head set screws with socket head versions.

4. Blown engine at 110 hours. Had to pull the engine myself and take it to a Kohler warranty dealer, as Kohler warranty did not cover remove and reinstall.

5. Hot running, which almost certainly caused number 4 above, and run on at shut down. Traced to PT built muffler, which I replaced with a Kohler muffler. No more run on. Kohler still running.

6. Finish mower bearings went out at approximately 200 hours, taking a spindle with them. Hardly commercial quality. Self repair.

7. Two leaking wheel motors. Bought a spare wheel motor and a rebuild kit.

8. Cracked brush mower deck at maybe 100 hours at most, possibly less. Self repair. See the current thread.

9. Innumerable mower flats due to tires rolling off of rims. The fix is to switch to solid tires or run pressures way above normal.

10. Constant oily mess in hydraulic tank area due to the tank being vented through a plain cap instead of a filtered cap.

11. Several main wheel flats due to having valve stems on both sides of each wheel. These are flats waiting to happen as stuff gets caught between the frame and the wheel, ripping the valve stem right out. Fixed by installing shorty metal valve stems on the inside of the wheels.

The machine has under 400 hours. The funny thing is this: The only thing I absolutely hate about it is the gas tank. There is no fuel shut off, and the high fill is flat instead of angled, which makes it very difficult to fuel up without spilling any gas. I never refuel while it is hot.

Add number 12, which I forgot.

The 48 inch finish mower's quick attach plate detached itself from its horizontal mounting bar. Upon inspection, it proved to be a weld with very poor penetration. I rewelded it and added a reinforcement, just in case.

 

[Central_PA_Chris]

Hey all,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Just wanted to post an update, though there is not much of an update.

After a few shenanigans with wrong parts from Robins it got put back together and I picked it up then next day 10/13/07 so THREE MONTHS after dropping it off. Word was governor blew, then the rear main seal blew out, though no one could say how/why that happened. No sign of internal engine damage, soooo Robins would not issue a new engine, just parts to put that one back together.

Got it back to the acreage and did about an hour of mowing. Good news is that it worked GREAT, much better than the first two hours or so I had it. That engine was BAD from the start and Power Trac missed it. So I had a bit of happy going on, better mowing, better wheel power. I was having to dismount every 10 minutes or so to pull grass out of the left side wheel where it was getting packed in badly since that's the side the grass mostly discharges on. Pain in the rear.

After about a hour of mowing I started to see and smell some smoke from undefined spots in the engine. I figured it was just residual coating from the first failure burning off, then it started to loose power and feel like it did BEFORE the engine rebuild. Engine seemed to be fricking hot. The plastic coating on the throttle cable melted against the steel engine cage. About that time I noticed I had a flat tire. Turns out Power Trac puts valve stems on both the inside and outside of each wheel and the interior one was ripped off where the grass was getting packed into the wheel well.So that was it for the day. Fired it up a few days later when I had the tire fixed (installed tire reversed on wheel for more room in wheel well for grass to NOT get stuck). Running great again, an hour later getting hot again, losing power, undefined smoke. Shut her down, smoke coming from around air filter. Huh, filter is soaked with oil and oil is pooled/puddled on the platform the filter sits on.

So back to the shop it went..... Talked to them Friday, they ran it without an air filter and they said it didn't overheat under that condition, seem to be hoping the air filter got soaked with oil on the first engine death and that that is causing poor airflow and hopefully the overheating. So hopefully today or tomorrow we will have a new air filter and that will solve it. Maybe, but I'm skeptical......

Wish me luck.

Chris

 

[SnowRidge]

Most of us have had to do something to fix those stupid inner valve stems. Fixes run from welding up the holes in the rim to putting in stubby metal valve stems. It's a royal pain. I have no idea why PT continues to use those rims.

Good luck with the engine. That plastic coating melting doesn't sound good.