Oil Recirculation in closed loop system

   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #21  
I've added some flow to the chart... hahaha.....
Red is the flow that feeds the steering pump.
Green feeds the FEL valve from the power beyond port on the steering valve.
Orange and Blue are steering.
See how the push on one cylinder is tied to the pull on the other cylinder and vice versa?
The oil never leaves that circuit except for a very little bit in the hoses near the steering valve.
Its like pouring a drink back and forth from glass to glass, the oil just goes back and forth between the cylinders.
Hydraulics.JPG
423021d1430446956-oil-recirculation-closed-loop-system-hydraulics-jpg
 
   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #23  
Your scenario would be true if the volume in the hoses between the cylinder and the valve is greater than the volume of the cylinder.

Ken
 
   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #24  
Your scenario would be true if the volume in the hoses between the cylinder and the valve is greater than the volume of the cylinder.

Ken

Nope. As the fluid is pushed out of the extend side of one cylinder, it is sucked into the retract side of the other cylinder. Since the opposite thing is happening on the other sides of the cylinders, the volume is equal.
 
   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #25  
I am definitely having a hard time wrapping my head around this. The pump is providing positive pressure, potentially significant positive pressure. So you are saying it does not happen like in the link I sent. Pressure on both sides of the seals are the same if there is no return to the tank. The valve then adds pressure and volume to the "driving" side. The cylinder moves to equate pressures. The "driving" side of the cylinder would have to become lower in pressure than the "relieving" side in order for fluid to go from the relieving side to the driving side. I do not see how that is possible. I can see how you could plumb the return to the suction side of the pump such that the fluid never goes to the tank.

I will have to think about this more. I will blame it on lack of sleep and not from being completely dense.

Ken
 
   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #26  
I'm not at a place where I can watch that video w/sound right now. I'll check it out tomorrow.
 
   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #27  
A few minor thoughts, for what they are worth.

1) the volumes on either side of the cylinder are not equal. One side has the piston it, the other doesn't. Nor are the cylinder face areas the same.

2) That also means that the effective force differs on the two sides, because the area of each cylinder face is different. (Pressure x area= force, i.e. the pressure difference on the two sides is the force that moves the cylinder). You see cylinders rated for extension/retraction force- this is why. That is also why the extension/retraction speeds are different.

3) At rest, the pressures on both sides are equal. The valve body allows high pressure into one side, and connects the other side to the tank, creating the pressure difference that generates the force that causes the cylinder movement. Basically, opening the valve causes a pressure difference, the cylinder moves to restore the equilibrium, causing the motion that we all benefit from. From a design perspective, you want to add pressure and bleed pressure gradually.

4) Ken's description is true for a compressible fluid, like a gas. For an incompressible fluid, such as hydraulic fluid, to get significant movement, you have to allow fluid in/out of the cylinder sides. In the ideal case, imagine plugging one side of the cylinder. The cylinder won't move no matter how much the pressure changes on the other side. (For real materials- the oil is slightly compressible, and the steel will flex, but only trivially.)

5) If you have a look at hydraulic valve designs, you will see that some cylinders have both sides locked at rest, some have one side connected to the tank, and some connect both sides of the cylinder to each other. (i.e. the "Float" position.) I think of "Float" as a short circuit. (Draft control works by keeping a fixed pressure in the lift side of the cylinder, which is why you don't want to have draft and float engaged at the same time- nothing works, and you are dumping oil from the pressure side to the tank constantly.)

6) If the volume of the hoses is smaller than the volume changes in the cylinders, the oil will exchange. If it isn't, it won't. (Neglecting diffusion.) It is my belief that for the PTs that is true. I have not run the math exactly, but here is a guesstimate;
Assume a 2" cylinder ID, with 10" of movement. That is about 31Cu.in. of oil volume change.
Steering hoses have about a 1/4" hose ID. Dividing that area into 31 cu in, that says that about 640" of hose contains 31 cu. in. of oil.
640" is 53' of hose. So, I would suggest that the oil is probably turning over. From a manufacturing point of view, you would want this to get rid of residual air in a cylinder.

As to why Carl's cylinders were filled with crud... I'll let Carl offer up his thoughts, but it is my impression that his PT is now in a good home, but that prior to arriving in Carl's hands it may have had a hard life, and that may have had something to do with it.

Sorry for the long post. I hope that it helps.

All the best,

Peter
 
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   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #28  
Peter, what you are saying is what I am saying. I am trying to understand the other description given to see if my understanding is wrong.

Ken
 
   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #29  
So here is the diagram I was given. The thing is I don't see really any place for the oil to return on the steering pumps.

I don't feel sitting in the dirt has any real effect on the quality of the oil. But IMO it really looks like they have no way of getting fresh oil without a deliberate draining.

Item #3 is your steering valve.

Item #20 is your steering return to tank.
 
   / Oil Recirculation in closed loop system #30  
The engine turns the aux pto pump.
The aux pto pump feeds the steering valve.
There is a power beyond port on the steering valve.
The power beyond port feeds the FEL/aux pto valve.
The oil flows out of the FEL/aux pto valve back to the tank.

Is that the path you're looking for?

What is the aux PTO pump.

My steering pump feeds the steering, FEL, and aux circuit for a cyl on front attachments.

My PTO pump is independent, and only iused for the PTO.
 
 
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