oscillating on side slopes

[whiterabbit]

I am looking at oscillating tractors - Power-Trac and Antonio Carraro (Ferrari) since I own 20acres of very steep slopes. I was told the following by an Antonio Carraro dealer:
"With the light weight of the AC Country 4300, when a loader is added to the front of the tractor, when the machine oscillates due to a rut or something causing the front part of the tractor to dip down, the weight of the loader does not let the tractor return, even if the loader is left low to the ground. Every County 4300 that I have sold W/ a loader installed when operated on steep terrain has tipped over at one time or another. The larger versions of the Antonio Carraro tractors may not have this problem. The Country 4300 is only 2000 lbs. and when you add 500-800 lbs. to the front of the machine it changes the balance quite a bit. All the weight is supported above the front axles, the weight is just too high. The oscillation becomes the problem due to the shift of center of gravity, if you go past the point of no return, there is not enough weight in the rear of the tractor to keep the tractor from ending up on its side. So far nobody has been injured from this happening, that I know of, most people have been able to step off the machine before getting crushed, or the ROP's along with a seat belt have done their jobs.

The least you might expect to get into one of the larger versions of the Antonio Carraro tractors is around $32,000.00 for a TC5400 W/ a loader. It is a 54 hp. machine and 3087 lbs., and I would still recommend leaving the loader back at barn when working on the real steep areas. They are quick disconnect loaders, which take about 5-10 min. to disconnect with a little practice. "

Other Antonio Carraro dealers have told me this is not an issue... these tractors are rated up to 30 degrees on slopes like PTs. Seems like even given this, I would expect any oscillating tractor would be better on slopes than a CUT. Any comments?

Has anyone experienced this same issue with a Power-Trac?

 

[KentT]

Carrying a heavy load in the bucket going around the side of any slope is somewhat dangerous, IMO. You absolutely want to keep the load as low to the ground as possible. However, I would point out two things that are different between the PTs and the Carraro tractors:

1. The PT is rear engined -- most of the weight is in the rear of the tractor, not the front. Also the loader lift arms attach almost directly over the front "axle" of the PT.

2. The center of gravity on a PT appears very low in comparison to the Carraro -- somewhere at/below the top of the 23" (or 26") tall tires.

This picture shows where the lift arms attach to the body of the PT, only slightly in front of the front "axle" and slightly higher than the front tires. The lift pistons attach below the centerline of those wheels.
Lift Arms on Mossroad's PT-425

The only time that I've noticed my PT get "tippy" is when you articulate sharply on a sideslope, shortening the wheelbase dramatically on the downhill side...

 

[MossRoad]

Any articulated machine's center of gravity will change when you turn, even on flat ground. This is because when you bend it in the middle, the front and rear halves come closer together. Not only does the center of gravity move forward and backwards, it also moves sideways as the unit turns.

For instance:
Load the bucket up with dirt until you cannot lift it. The rear of the unit will come off the ground.

Now dump out just enough dirt so that you can lift it without the rear coming off the ground.

Then, without moving forward or backwards, lift the bucket 4" off the ground.

Now turn the steering wheel slowly left or right. The unit will slowly tip forward onto the bucket as the rear rises off the ground.

Turn the wheel back to straight and the rear will drop down and the bucket will come off the ground.

Watch this video of the thing we call the PT Pucker. I am picking up a huge log with my forks. The video is grainy, but if you watch closely, you will see that I approach the log straight on. Then, after picking it up only a couple inches off the ground, I start to back up. Watch my hands crank the wheel to the left. As I do that the right rear tire come off the ground. You can't see it, but the right rear is 6 inches off the gournd. All three of the other wheels are on the ground. As I start to move forward, I straighten out the wheel and the right rear wheel comes back on the ground. If I wold have picked the log up 3 feet in the air and then cranked the steering wheel, the unit would have violently tipped forward and I would possibly have eaten the steering wheel. That is why you need to keep one hand on the joystick at all times ready to dump the load. You also need to be careful when loading a trailer, or positioning a full bucket over something else. As with any heavy equipment, or power tool, you really need to be aware of these situations at all times and practice good safety habits.

This is also a reason to get the ROPS and use the seatbelt at ALL TIMES, no matter what. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As with any tractor with a front end loader, the higher you carry a load, the higher your center of gravity and the more likely you are to tip over on your side.

Take the PT 45 degree slope mower, for example. Sure, it will traverse very steep slopes, but I bet if you pick up the mower really high while on a slope, you will regret it. Now substitute the mower for a bucket full of dirt and see how much faster it will tip over. The key is to use a machine for its intended purpose. None of these PT units or any other CUTS are intended to carry full loads of dirt in an FEL up high, across, up, or down, slopes. It is dangerous no matter what model machine you get. You need to carry the loads down low, slow, with your hand on the FEL joystick ready to drop it into float at a moments notice.

 

[FOURTEEN]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( "With the light weight of the AC Country 4300, when a loader is added to the front of the tractor, when the machine oscillates due to a rut or something causing the front part of the tractor to dip down, the weight of the loader does not let the tractor return, even if the loader is left low to the ground. Every County 4300 that I have sold W/ a loader installed when operated on steep terrain has tipped over at one time or another. The larger versions of the Antonio Carraro tractors may not have this problem. The Country 4300 is only 2000 lbs. and when you add 500-800 lbs. to the front of the machine it changes the balance quite a bit. All the weight is supported above the front axles, the weight is just too high. The oscillation becomes the problem due to the shift of center of gravity, if you go past the point of no return, there is not enough weight in the rear of the tractor to keep the tractor from ending up on its side. )</font>


<font color="red"> I have experienced "PT Pucker" many times. The PT has never tipped over! My PT-425 only weighs 1400# and with a 700# load in the bucket pucker can be induced. However, note that even with the rear section shifted fully to the side, nothing spectacular happens! Just slowly lower the bucket to, in turn, return the rear section to the ground. Actually the PT seems less likely to fall over with a full bucket than it does with an empty bucket. The brush cutter or mower deck lowers the C of G of the PT even more, and has a substantial stabilizing effect front to back and side to side.

When a front wheel suddenly drops into a chuck hole while carrying a log in my grapple bucket, the log acts as an outrigger, stabilizing the PT!

While digging a 3' deep electrical trench the PT had one wheel fall into the open trench many times, but it never turned over, and it always just climbed back out!
(Note how little the wheels disturbed the fresh dirt along the sides of the trench!)

I give at least partial credit to my having reversed the wheels for a wider track.

Although even a piece of plywood will flip over under certain conditions, the PT is much less likely to flip over, and is much more stable under load, than one might imagine!!

After over 250 hours of operation, I now regularly go places, and do things, with the PT-425 that a couple years ago I would have considered impossible or reckless!! The PT has often been up on two wheels, but, so far, never up on none!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

</font>

 

[whiterabbit]

thanks for the replies.

To be clear - unlike the PTs which articulate and oscillate (12 degrees I think) the AC 4300 only oscillates 15 degrees (no articulated steering). This was the machine (AC4300 Country) I was told becomes quite unsteady with a loader. The larger more expensive ACs both oscillate and articulate like PT.

Here's a link to the AC4300 Country:
http://www.antoniocarraro.it/index.php?lang=en&areaid=3&menuid=11&countryid=638&useid=1&itemid=2

 

[FOURTEEN]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( (AC4300 Country) I was told becomes quite unsteady with a loader. The larger more expensive ACs both oscillate and articulate like PT.)</font>


<font color="red"> Now I understand your concerns!! If the PT-425 were a pickup truck, the AC4300 would be a dump truck!! Fully investigate Power Trac. I'm sure you will find that they will do a lot more for a lot less!! Attachments
</font>

 

[smartguyz]

Hi WhiteRabbit,

I suppose it depends on how 'very steep' your terrain really is. Mine is about 10-15 degrees in places, and I need to be cautious, but I regularly bring soil and compost all over the property with a PT425. If you have truly steep slopes, your safest machine will likely be an 1845.

Power-Trac 1845

It will still tip at the limits, but it will be a lot more stable going across a slope and the limits will be much higher. I recommend you take a look at it and then decide. 1845 owners can chime in!

Sincerely,

Rob /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

<font color="red"> It will still tip at the limits </font>
My 1845 with single wheels will much more likely slide than turn over at its limit. I think that's also true of those with dual wheels.
I could certainly turn it over with a bucket load high, but it is more stable than any conventional tractor I know about.

 

[SnowRidge]

<font color="blue"> With the light weight of the AC Country 4300, when a loader is added to the front of the tractor, when the machine oscillates due to a rut or something causing the front part of the tractor to dip down, the weight of the loader does not let the tractor return, even if the loader is left low to the ground. Every County 4300 that I have sold W/ a loader installed when operated on steep terrain has tipped over at one time or another. </font>

Well, if a dealer told me that, I'd be convinced. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Power Tracs have a much lower center of gravity. They are safer on steep terrain than most of the other machines you can read about here on TBN. If you will be operating on steep, rough ground, the diesel models will give you an additional edge in the safety department.

 

[smartguyz]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="red"> It will still tip at the limits </font>
My 1845 with single wheels will much more likely slide than turn over at its limit. I think that's also true of those with dual wheels.
I could certainly turn it over with a bucket load high, but it is more stable than any conventional tractor I know about. )</font>

Hi Charlie -

I was hoping you would chime in. When I said tip, I meant exactly what you said. We are in agreement!

Sincerely,

Rob /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif