Building A Bridge

[Toiyabe]

Koop,

That photo scares the heck out of me. You need to have that bridge evaluated by a P.E. with regards to its new setting. You need to have the foundations designed by a P.E. You need to have the bridge periodically inspected by a certified bridge inspector.

If there isn't a law in Virginia that forces you to do those things, there should be. That is a serious bridge.

Don't cut into your saftey factors. That's always a bad idea, but in the case of this bridge it is a incredibly bad idea.

Nothing personal, but I think VDOT was crazy to sell that bridge to a private individual for anything other than scrap.

[Renze]

Originally Posted by Toiyabe

Koop,
That photo scares the heck out of me. You need to have that bridge evaluated by a P.E. with regards to its new setting. You need to have the foundations designed by a P.E. You need to have the bridge periodically inspected by a certified bridge inspector.

If there isn't a law in Virginia that forces you to do those things, there should be. That is a serious bridge.


Nothing personal, but I think VDOT was crazy to sell that bridge to a private individual for anything other than scrap.

You SHOULD blah, you SHOULD blah, but there isnt any law forcing you to do so... And the government shouldnt.....

I'm just glad it's not you who makes laws... It would make any commercial undertaking impossible.

In my business, the trailer business, there are tons of laws of you should this and you shouldnt... But if you put something plain stupid on the road even though it is approved, approved or not if somebody dies the lawyers still know how to find you...

So if all those rules and laws still have loopholes that allow folks to put dangerous and stupid stuff on the road one one hand, yet cause high cost for the manufacturer, and still dont take away the product responsibility from the manufacturer to the institution that checks if these loopholed laws are carried out, it doesnt help responsible enterprise at all...



why would he have an engineer to calculate the foundation ? The worst thing that could happen is the bridge sinking a couple of inches deeper into the sand..
Even if the bridge itself would fail, sinking a few feet down into the river bead, the thrill wouldnt be even close to the roller coaster ride we have us kids make in the amusement park....

[Toiyabe]

Originally Posted by Renze

You SHOULD blah, you SHOULD blah, but there isnt any law forcing you to do so... And the government shouldnt.....

I don't know Virginia law, so I don't know what the requirements are in this case. I do know that if it were a bridge that carried a public road, it would need to be designed by a PE and inspected periodically by a certified bridge inspector.

I'm just glad it's not you who makes laws... It would make any commercial undertaking impossible.

Just like building codes make it impossible to build buildings. I wonder where all these buildings came from then?

In my business, the trailer business, there are tons of laws of you should this and you shouldnt... But if you put something plain stupid on the road even though it is approved, approved or not if somebody dies the lawyers still know how to find you...

Yup, if you do something stupid that causes someone's death you'll be seeing the insides of a courtroom.

So if all those rules and laws still have loopholes that allow folks to put dangerous and stupid stuff on the road one one hand, yet cause high cost for the manufacturer, and still dont take away the product responsibility from the manufacturer to the institution that checks if these loopholed laws are carried out, it doesnt help responsible enterprise at all...

Maybe because some people think that preventing deaths is a good thing? Sure you can't cover everything with laws, but some laws to keep people from doing really stupid things might be a good thing. For the rest, there is civil liability, as you said.

Also, these basic laws do help responsible enterprises. They keep the shady fly-by-night enterprises from undercutting them with unsafe products and then folding up and disappearing when things go wrong. Maybe we'd still be making trailer tires in the US if there was enforcement of some sort of basic standards.

why would he have an engineer to calculate the foundation ? The worst thing that could happen is the bridge sinking a couple of inches deeper into the sand..
Even if the bridge itself would fail, sinking a few feet down into the river bead, the thrill wouldnt be even close to the roller coaster ride we have us kids make in the amusement park....

You are making gross assumptions about the site. What do you know about the elevation of the bridge? What do you know about the potential for scour, or uneven settlement? Can you imagine what might happen if one corner of a 50 ton structure settles faster than the other three corners, especially if it is only rated for a 7 ton live load? 50 tons is a wild guess from the photo, but note that it came in on an overweight permit.

How do you know that the bridge will fail in a gracefull, ductile manner? Doesn't the fact that it may be highly deteriorated cause you to wonder? I assure you, steel trusses have failed catastrophically with loss of life in the past, and will in the future.

[Kendall69]

...I prefer to laugh with Timber, Greyfield and Gotrocks and actually learn something from Renze, D7E, Schmism and Toiyabe

The only person laughing is me. Thinking for one second you can “learn” something about a bridge from people on the internet who haven’t seen the bridge in person, is the funniest thing I have EVER heard of.

..self righteous lecturer

Yep that’s me alright. I tend to give self righteous lectures to, drunks who are about to drive, kids who play with matches, passengers who don’t wear seat belts, people who play Russian Roulette,...and most of to people who don’t want to spend money doing a job right that will endanger people lives.

If you can’t handle the truth...don’t ask the question.

[Renze]

No, excess laws dont prevent anything from being built...
It's the mood of the inspector that prevents things from being allowed... the law is all about interpretation. If something is legal, all depends on by who, and how something is interpreted.

I dont know how it works in America, but the great European law, is a lot of smoke and little fire. Stupid, cost adding, unnecessary things are bound in laws, where i see high risks getting a type approval through loopholes, without anyone seem to care.

Originally Posted by Toiyabe

You are making gross assumptions about the site. What do you know about the elevation of the bridge? What do you know about the potential for scour, or uneven settlement? Can you imagine what might happen if one corner of a 50 ton structure settles faster than the other three corners, especially if it is only rated for a 7 ton live load? 50 tons is a wild guess from the photo, but note that it came in on an overweight permit.

How do you know that the bridge will fail in a gracefull, ductile manner? Doesn't the fact that it may be highly deteriorated cause you to wonder? I assure you, steel trusses have failed catastrophically with loss of life in the past, and will in the future.

May i remind you that, since both of us share the same amount of knowledge about the bridge site (which means nothing), we both are purely assuming, you just as much as i am ??

Originally Posted by Toiyabe

Also, these basic laws do help responsible enterprises. They keep the shady fly-by-night enterprises from undercutting them with unsafe products and then folding up and disappearing when things go wrong. Maybe we'd still be making trailer tires in the US if there was enforcement of some sort of basic standards.

You do have a good point: When there are loopholes in the road traffic laws, there are also loopholes in the law to get away with legal liability and product responsibility, like manufacturers that stuff the market with dodgy stuff and are already gone when the **** hits the fan...

For me personally, business is like this: Build trailers for our customers like you'd like to use one yourself (safe, solid, responsible)
For the rest, if necessary, use existing loopholes in the law to get your safe, solid, responsible product on the road. After all, we work to earn a mouthfull of bread...





About that bridge, it somehow remembers me of the Bailey bridges the allies used in WW2... if it is a Bailey, it should take a Sherman tank or 2....

[bucmeister]

Koop,

You mentioned a low water bridge now being used, which would cause me to speculate that this bridge is not crossing a 90' deep ravine. I, for one, would like to hear about the crossing. Is this bridge going to span the same distance that it did originally? Can the new supports be set so that the free-span length is reduced? Is it possible to place a center span support pier?

For me personally, the circumstances of the crossing would be a factor in what I would risk. If the span were as long as original but only 5' off the stream bottom I would feel different about it compared to a 15' deep stream. Not that you would want to lose the bridge under any circumstances, but a 5' collapse would be less likely to hurt someone when compared to a 15' collapse. Around here we have a lot a 2-lane state highways with the bridges rated at 52,*** lbs (not sure why that is the prevailing figure) and they are constantly crossed by log and grain trucks weighing in excess of 80,000 lbs year in and year out. This practice is well know by the state regualtors and no effort is made to stop it. The limits seem to be more of a CYA effort by the state because the state DOT itself routinely moves loads exceeding the posted limits across these bridges.

[sandman2234]

Adding another Assumption to the lengthy list:
Changing the span would seem like a good idea, but in the case of engineered components, this is not always a good idea. Where the load is transfered to the ground is often a build in design itself and changing that can cause catastrophic results. I know if this were a prestressed beam it would make a major difference, and can see where steel bridges could matter, and by the way, I am no engineer.
David from jax

[KentT]

Originally Posted by sandman2234

...

and by the way, I am no engineer.
David from jax

Couldn't pass up this opening -- given the "extreme engineering" discussion going on in this thread -- does that mean you can't pass this engineering licensure test?

1. 1. Calculate the smallest limb diameter on a persimmon tree that will support a 10-pound possum.
   2. Which of the following cars will rust out the quickest when placed on blocks in your front yard?
      1. '66 Ford Fairlane
      2. '69 Chevrolet Chevelle
      3. '64 Pontiac GTO
   3. If your uncle builds a still that operates at a capacity of 20 gallons of shine per hour, how many car radiators are necessary to condense the product?
   4. A pulpwood cutter has a chain saw that operates at 2700 rpm. The density of the pine trees in a plot to be harvested is 470 per acre. The plot is 2.3 acres in size. The average tree diameter is 14 inches. How many Budweiser Tall-Boys will it take to cut the trees?
   5. If every old refrigerator in the state vented a charge of R-12 simultaneously, what would be the decrease in the ozone layer?
   6. A front porch is constructed of 2x8 pine on 24-inch centers with a field rock foundation. The span is 8 feet and the porch length is 16 feet. The porch floor is 1 inch rough sawn pine. When the porch collapses, how many hound dogs will be killed?
   7. A man owns a house and 3.7 acres of land in a hollow with an average slope of 15%. The man has 5 children. Can each of the children place a mobile home on the man's land?
   8. A 2-ton pulpwood truck is overloaded and proceeding down a steep grade on a secondary road at 45 mph. The brakes fail. Given the average traffic loading of secondary roads, how many people will swerve to avoid the truck before it crashes at the bottom of the mountain? For extra credit, how many of the vehicles that swerved will have mufflers and uncracked windshields?
   9. A Coal Mine operates a NFPA Class 1, Division 2 Hazardous Area. The mine employs 120 miners per shift. A gas warning is issued at the beginning of 3rd shift. How many cartons of unfiltered Camels will be smoked during the shift?
   10. How many generations will it take before cattle develop two legs shorter than the others because of grazing along a mountainside?

[MarkV]

Originally Posted by KentT

Couldn't pass up this opening -- given the "extreme engineering" discussion going on in this thread -- does that mean you can't pass this engineering licensure test?

1. 1. Calculate the smallest limb diameter on a persimmon tree that will support a 10-pound possum.
   2. Which of the following cars will rust out the quickest when placed on blocks in your front yard?
      1. '66 Ford Fairlane
      2. '69 Chevrolet Chevelle
      3. '64 Pontiac GTO
   3. If your uncle builds a still that operates at a capacity of 20 gallons of shine per hour, how many car radiators are necessary to condense the product?
   4. A pulpwood cutter has a chain saw that operates at 2700 rpm. The density of the pine trees in a plot to be harvested is 470 per acre. The plot is 2.3 acres in size. The average tree diameter is 14 inches. How many Budweiser Tall-Boys will it take to cut the trees?
   5. If every old refrigerator in the state vented a charge of R-12 simultaneously, what would be the decrease in the ozone layer?
   6. A front porch is constructed of 2x8 pine on 24-inch centers with a field rock foundation. The span is 8 feet and the porch length is 16 feet. The porch floor is 1 inch rough sawn pine. When the porch collapses, how many hound dogs will be killed?
   7. A man owns a house and 3.7 acres of land in a hollow with an average slope of 15%. The man has 5 children. Can each of the children place a mobile home on the man's land?
   8. A 2-ton pulpwood truck is overloaded and proceeding down a steep grade on a secondary road at 45 mph. The brakes fail. Given the average traffic loading of secondary roads, how many people will swerve to avoid the truck before it crashes at the bottom of the mountain? For extra credit, how many of the vehicles that swerved will have mufflers and uncracked windshields?
   9. A Coal Mine operates a NFPA Class 1, Division 2 Hazardous Area. The mine employs 120 miners per shift. A gas warning is issued at the beginning of 3rd shift. How many cartons of unfiltered Camels will be smoked during the shift?
   10. How many generations will it take before cattle develop two legs shorter than the others because of grazing along a mountainside?

Shoot, all my neighbors here in rural Georgia can answer those questions. Guess we just didn’t know how smart we were. Ya’ll come on down and we will see if the shine is ready.

MarkV

[SkunkWerX]

Forget Laws and Engineers, for just a moment, and think about this:

Insurance.
My brother in law who is in the insurance industry (Commercial stuff) says that everything is moot, if it is "Uninsurable".

If you plan to insure yourself, at that property, then the Insurance Company is going to dictate a lot of what you need to do. You can bet they will want a full fledged Engineering evaluation of the bridge, including proposed foundation.

It is highyl unlikely you could even get any liability insurance for the property at all, with the bridge excluded from the policy, so, you end up being 100% uninsured, which means you are open for any kind of lawsuit that comes down the pike.

If you are NOT planning to insure yourself, at all, then heck, post a sign that says "Weight Limit 10 lbs" , it won't protect you in the least.


In the courtroom:

"Mr. BridgeOwner, did ever contemplate the consequences of this bridge?"

-If you answer "NO" it's grounds for Negligence

-If you answer "YES" and still did nothing, then it's grounds for WillFull Negligence.

Either way you will be found Negligent.


If you aren't worried about losing ALL of your assets, the 10 or so years in jail should be considered. Then, when you get out of jail, you can sit in court during the Civil LawSuit.

My recommendation: Forget the Loads it will handle for now, get yourself a savvy Insurance person, and get it Insured. By virtue of having the insurance, you will end up with the proper safety inspections and documentation.