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  1. #31
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    Kubota, G5200, KAMA 454

    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    dfkrug,

    I'd be interested in knowing what manufactures reccomend not vibrating using an internal vibrator. I have found they all reccomend vibrating and using a 5-6 slump. The is per the concrete industry standards for poured walls. From the field, I hear "external banging and we have had no problems". A bit odd the industry and installers have not come to terms!
    The issue with ICF is you can't see if you have good consolidation. For that mater, you can't see even with Removable forms because the most critical points are around the rebar. I think part of it is a slopy 8" poured wall is ten times the strength, (Lateral), than a 8" CMU, (concrete block). My walls have had an eng call for 5/8" Rebar, grade 60 16" on center, vertical and horzontal. With the building sitting on bed rock and only the top few feet of the trench being dirt, rest being...solid rock. My case it very diff though, I'm going 3 stories all concrete. With over 450 yards on concrete, this beast will weight a bunch, 150 lb/cu-ft,,27 cu-ft/cu-yd, 450 cu-yd....1,822,500 lbs or 911 tons.

    Aside from that, it's been HOT in Southern Indiana. We have moved the start time from 8:00AM to 7:00AM and offering anyone not feeling up to the heat to go home early.

    Patrick T.

  2. #32
    Veteran Member crbr's Avatar
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    East TN
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    Kub - 2K6, B7800

    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy
    crbr,

    Electrical work? What do you mean?

    Patrick T.
    Where does your electrical wiring run? I don't see an internal conduit as such. Very interesting project you have going. Thanks for sharing.
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  3. #33
    Elite Member dfkrug's Avatar
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    05 Kioti CK30HST w/ Prairie Dog backhoe

    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy
    dfkrug,

    I'd be interested in knowing what manufactures reccomend not vibrating using an internal vibrator. I have found they all reccomend vibrating and using a 5-6 slump. The is per the concrete industry standards for poured walls.
    There are no "standards" in the bldg codes for ICF construction. Approvals
    are based on certifications that include the verbage of following the
    manufacturer's directions. My house is of 8" Polysteel, and internal
    vibration was emphatically NOT advised. There was an attempt at a
    "standard" for ICF construction called "Prescriptive method of ICF
    construction", or something to that effect. I don't know where that
    stands now, and how it dealt with the 80+ different ICFs avail in the
    US.

    Poured walls using plywood or steel forms are quite a bit different, and
    internal vibration is usually practiced.
    See my TBN projects at:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/resyfcgt/

  4. #34
    Super Member mjncad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    I'm looking forward to seeing your project progress Paddy.
    Paraphrasing Douglas Adams - So long and thanks for all the bacon.

  5. #35
    Platinum Member
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    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    Crbr,

    In ICFs, the foam is 2 5/8" thick. There are to basic methods of making the channel, an ele chain saw with a depth stop and a 'hot wire' cutter. The floors are concrete on steel so much room for mechanicals there.

    Patrick T.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    Dfkrug,

    I'm a bit suprised Polysteel makes that stand. generally the reason anyone does not vibrate is due to concerns of blowouts. ICFs are very similar to standard form work except all the ties. The ties tend be obstructions while pouring causing some seperation of cement/fines and aggrate. I don't think if one has not vibrated there is a major problem waiting. In most cases, a 8" poured wall is over built and a small void here and there is no different than a small window.

    Patrick T.

  7. #37
    Platinum Member
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    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    I'm back. It's been so hot here in S. Indiana we are not pushing the guys to work any long than they feel like it. So things might slow down a bit until it cools off. Not an issue though because before the big pour many details must be figured out. Since we are using a steel and concrete composite system, there will be several pockets for beams located at the top of the walls. The bracing is up but in the last few days the walkboards went up as well. The walkboards were used for the formed footers, 2x10s. This will allow for an easy walk around the parimeter as the walls are filled via the pumper. The last photo is a shot of the adjustable bracing foot. This allows for fine plumb adjustment via a turnbuckle.

    Patrick T.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #38
    Super Member 3RRL's Avatar
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    Foothills of the Giant Sequoia's, California
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    55HP 4WD KAMA 554 and 4 x 4 Jinma 284

    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    Pat,
    That looks like a pretty big footprint...bigger than I thought. How many square feet did you say your place is going to be?
    Rob-
    ...The Older I get...the Better I Used to be...
    Member of the Month

  9. #39
    Elite Member dfkrug's Avatar
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    05 Kioti CK30HST w/ Prairie Dog backhoe

    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy
    Dfkrug,

    I'm a bit suprised Polysteel makes that stand. generally the reason anyone does not vibrate is due to concerns of blowouts. ICFs are very similar to standard form work except all the ties. The ties tend be obstructions while pouring causing some seperation of cement/fines and aggrate. I don't think if one has not vibrated there is a major problem waiting. In most cases, a 8" poured wall is over built and a small void here and there is no different than a small window.
    I agree that an 8" or 6" poured reinforced concrete wall is overbuilt
    for a residence, so a void here and there is not going to be a structural
    problem. As for ICFs being similar to standard formwork, they DO produce
    a concrete wall, but the formwork is weaker than steel or wood forms
    and therefore requires special treatment. Concrete contractors who use
    plywood forms have often told me how they have punctured WOOD
    forms with stinger-type vibrators. It is much easier to puncture an EPS or
    XPS foam form with that tool.

    To reduce or eliminate the need to vibrate, we pour with a high slump,
    6 or more sacks/cy mix, and sometimes retarders or elasticity-improving
    additives. Always a pea gravel pump mix, too. In the cases where walls
    have been cut open after a pour (oh, crap, I meant to put a door there!),
    I have not seen any voids. Stiff concrete causes problems, like voids,
    however.

    As for electrical lines, there are many methods. I personally liked to set
    up a straight edge and use a small router.
    See my TBN projects at:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/resyfcgt/

  10. #40
    Platinum Member
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    Default Re: Concrete ICF home continues

    3RRL,

    The basement is 54 x 69'. I did not need such a big basement but due to the slope, I would have had to have a partial basement and crawl. With all the weight of a 3 story concrete home, I wanted a monolithic box so to say for the foundation. The next level up will be set in for some patio space. The top floor will have a 30x30' opening. In the end the main level will be 3300 sq-ft and the second level will be 2400 sq-ft. So about 5800 sq-ft sitting on a 3700 sq-ft walk out. Half the walk out basement is for my work shop tractor parking.

    It is on the big side. We have justified the size due to the lake setting. As our kids have all moved out and will find themselves all over the country with jobs, we hope to have a 'magnet' to get them to visit. So the intension is to have plenty of private room and fun Summer lake envoirment.

    Patrick T.

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