Pumping from creek - how to run wiring?

[JimS]

I have a very small seasonal (Usually flows until August depending on the weather) creek on my property. I am hoping to use this for irrigation of a garden and plants around the house. Couple of issues. The creek is about 80 ft below the house. Pipe/Wiring run will be about 300 ft. One thought was to put a small pump in the creek and pump to a few thousand gallon pond or tank that was higher and closer to the house. Then use a bigger pump to run sprinklers and such. That way I could get the flow and pressure needed without running heavy wiring down the canyon. Would also allow me to pump when stream flow is very low. Could also direct downspouts into tank for more water.

One question is how to do storage pond/tank. With the soil here would probably need a liner. This could quickly become a project that isn't economically feasible.

Could try a well but that is kind of hit or miss around here.

Big question right now is how to run wiring to pump. The hills are steep so no way to get much equipment down them. Might be able to get a ditcher down it to bury the wiring but would be difficult to keep erosion in check. Had though of just using #12 flexible (extension) cord and running it across the ground. This would meet code if on a GFCI circuit. Code allows this for temporary (up to 90 day) use. Other options are boring (seems like this would be expensive but not sure how expensive) or overhead. Not pretty but could trench what isn't in the woods.
I am not sure if there is any way to do above ground conduit and meet code.

Pumping from a creek here is no problem from a legal standpoint.

Looking for ideas and what others have done.

Jim

 

[jwscott]

Jim,
A #12 extension cord is not going to be able to carry very much amperage at 300' without considerable voltage drop which is not good for your pump motor. Does your installation have to pass electrical inspection? If not, you could lay a black poly pipe over the ground to use as a conduit for the electrical wires. The poly pipe will provide mechanical protection for the wires. You will need three, probably THHN of suitable size to carry the motor load with acceptable voltage drop. You should be able to find a table on line to show motor size, distance and needed wire size. A 240 volt pump would be much better than 120.

The second thing is that in my state, Washington, you could not do this without first obtaining a water right from the state. All the western states are similar. I don't know about the eastern states, but here in the west surface water, even if it all originates on your land is owned by the state and you can only use it by permit.

Otherwise good luck with you project.
Jim

 

[Coyote machine]

Could you say what state you're in so we know what we/you are dealing with?
And why not consider a small generator that could be used when needed to run your pump at the location where the water is- if feasible based on topography, etc. ?
You would need to match it with the pump and make sure it could handle the 'head' over the distance.
You could even rent the right size pump and a generator to test it out and see how well it works before buying the equipment. Excavators usually pump out ponds to do repair work with large gas operated pumps, with large diameter hose, that can run most anywhere. By using a large flow pump with the motor located at the pump it makes for quick movement of large volumes of water.

 

[JimS]

I am in Illinois. I have checked on the water rights issue and have been told by the authorities that I can pump as long as I don't dam the creek or pump the whole thing (or something like that). There are natural deeper spots along the creek that I can pump from. I grew up on the west coast and lived there until I was about 30. I realize this varies greatly from place to place. But it isn't an issue for me.

I am pretty sure this is the situation regarding inspection: If the installation is temporary it won't be inspected. If I install anything permanent then I need inspection. Either way I want it to be safe but GFCI should do a lot in that regard. And they make dual breaker GFCIs that can supply both 115 and 230 V loads - good for the pumps and the 115V control circuits.

Using black poly pipe as conduit would probably work pretty well from a practical standpoint. But I wonder about the legality of it even for temporary use - I doubt it would be acceptable.

I am in electronics and have done a considerable amount of residential wiring on my own homes including all the wiring in my current home (they were inspected BTW) but am not as familiar with outdoor wiring. I have looked at voltage drop. I have a pump rated 4.4A at 240 V that I am considering using. It should be fine on #12 wire although starting current MIGHT be an issue. This is a 1/2 Hp pump and only gives about 5 gpm at 50 PSI as I recall so by the time it lifts the water to the house it won't be able to do much more. But the low flow is a plus when the stream flow is low. A bigger pump would be great when stream flow is high but could be utilized less of the year. One of those difficult tradeoffs...

This lead to the idea of a storage tank/pond by the house with a bigger pump there. And capture rainwater too.

The generator idea is interesting. I could put the pump and generator in a small shed to help deter vandals and theft (not a big problem here but still...). Then again why not just go directly from gas engine to pump and skip the electricity? Part of the problem with this is I want it to be automatic. The engine could be electric start. The control wire could be low voltage so there aren't any code issues.

I even briefly considered a jet pump like in a well so the pump could be up by the house. Then I would just have pipes going down to the creek - much easier and cheaper than wires. But I think it would be fairly inefficient. Anyone have thoughts or experience with something like this?

We used a gas powered pump to get water out of a creek where I grew up (large creek, large flow pump). Out west but so remote we basically just did what we wanted for buildings, wiring, pumps, etc. But that was a long time ago too... Anyway the point is that we had to go out and fire it up each time we wanted irrigation. As I remember it every few days we gassed it up, started it, and it ran until it ran out of gas. Something like that might be workable for me now but I was looking for something that I didn't have to mess with so much.

We have city water for the house but it gets very expensive to do much watering with it.

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

what about sinking a "sand point" well by the stream and building a pump house around that? you could use 1.5" PVC or irrigation tubing to run a 220 circuit from house to pump house, and do a second run in the same trench to pipe the water back up to a bury hydrant next to the house. I'd also put a 20 or 30 gallon pressure tank inthe pump house to level out the pressure and help the pump maintain prime.

 

[Coyote machine]

If I were you I would check with the local ag dept or 4 H or some such 'animal' in your area about how best to accomplish what you are attempting, with least expense. Seems to me, depending on what the total run to your house from the creek is, (distance and head) you have to overcome with the pump you may be into more engineering than you currently anticipate. To pump uphill 80 feet is a big deal as far as having a pump that can maintain prime and push the water that far uphill without loosing out the the forces working against the pump (head). Horsepower and voltage/amps are factors, but there is a limit on any pump as to its ability to go uphill.
I would try the rental routine first- therefore nothing ventured, nothing gained or lost. That way you would also know what size pipe for the water, what hp and what circuit or generator size you would need.
You ought to consider using rain barrels to capture the water that comes off your roof too. I know you mentioned something to this effect- and every little bit of recycled water saves you money on either water bill, gas for generator, or electric to run a pump.
Have you considered a well to supply your domestic water as well as your irrigation needs? This might get you off city water and free you up for both issues without any engineering nightmare beyond the initial expense of drilling your own well. There must be some good dowsers in your area who could find water on your property.Then you could tell the city to pound salt too....

 

[Coyote machine]

I just did a google search for pumping water uphill and it came up with many links to search out. There you should be able to find a lot of reference material addressing your questions, including the use of solar power and such to virtually eliminate some of the costs involved in pumping uphill. You might also be able to do timed pumping- so many hour/day etc. check out what's out there.
Good luck....

 

[thunderworks]

Check this link:

Backwoods Solar Electric Systems

Interesting ideas for a Solar based system.

 

[Illini22]

run 3 conductor triplex overhead service cable then build a risor(weatherhead) by stream for your service . use the same type of cable that feeds the majority of the houses in america.

 

[ltbradle]

As for water storage.
Use a portable swimming pool from Walmart and such. 2000 gal. 200 bucks or less.