New garden - When to add amendments
- Thread starter RedDirt
- Start date
bp fick
Super Member
Yup. Give or take a bit.
forgeblast
Elite Member
I reciently read a good book. Gardening when it counts.
It had a soil amender section.
3 parts lime (he used a couple types of lime)
1 part meal (seed, bone, etc).
What i use are 3 Parts lime, 1 part bone meal, 1 part blood meal.
I also put lime in the fall to break down all winter long covered with grass or double ground wood chips. By the spring its broken down and tilled back into the soil with a healty dose of the amender. I have a lot of raised beds, and a whole run of asparagus which needs lime added to it each year. (so far doing great).
I find the more prep work i can do in the fall, The easier my spring is.
It had a soil amender section.
3 parts lime (he used a couple types of lime)
1 part meal (seed, bone, etc).
What i use are 3 Parts lime, 1 part bone meal, 1 part blood meal.
I also put lime in the fall to break down all winter long covered with grass or double ground wood chips. By the spring its broken down and tilled back into the soil with a healty dose of the amender. I have a lot of raised beds, and a whole run of asparagus which needs lime added to it each year. (so far doing great).
I find the more prep work i can do in the fall, The easier my spring is.
03FORD250
New member
It may be too late now, but last fall I planted a "cold zone" cover crop. It consisted of Hairy vetch and Cereal Rye. Got it from groworganic.com and planted in the middle of September. I'm in zone 6 (basically Cincinnati, Ohio). This past spring the Cereal Rye was about 4 ft tall, and the Hairy Vetch came in nicely. I cut it down let it sit for 2 weeks and tilled it in. Worked well enough that I did again this year. Might want to give it a try. It also helps with erosion.
OP
RedDirt
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Thanks for all the good input. You're helping me remember what I forgot after leaving serious gardening 20 years ago and teaching me new stuff too. Even then the women did the technical stuff, tended and harvested while the guys did the heavy prep and planting. Mostly we relied on a walk behind tiller and good supply of barn materials to feed the soil.
Our ph is pretty decent at about 6.5 to7.0 at various spots I tested last year but thanks for the reminder to test again. P & K are reasonably sufficient but N is very low, almost zero, so a good healthy dose of nitrogen is needed. I think I'll take amp's advice and get a bone fide soil test rather than simply relying on our home test kit. I'll do a parallel home test and it will be a measure of our kit's accuracy.
We get a good drop of oak leaves annually and they are only just now beginning to shed. We haven't had our first big drop yet, a bit late this year. I have a couple of ten ft diameter bins five feet high that I put the leaves into in the fall, watered and layered with with bagged chicken manure.
Based on the discussion and advice you have given I think I'll certainly limit this falls amendments to last years leaves, "leaf mold" as charlz calls it, and only my most decomposed materials along with some manure and extra nitrogen, probably dried blood. My charts say I need about 36oz (weight) per 100 sqft to get our nitrogen level up. Sound about right?
I'll take this years leaves and mix them with my lesser decomposed materials and mix with most of the steer manure I have and some more blood. Maybe I can get it good and hot and have decent compost in the spring. With a few more steel posts and another roll of wire I can probably make and fill five of the ten ft dia bins. Depending on getting access between snows should I turn the heap a couple of times in the winter or just leave it until spring?
We get zero rain here in the summer. Typical last rain is end of May and first rain in late Sept or mid Oct. (That, besides decades of mismanaged forests is why we get such terrible forest fires these days.) Lack of rain is why I haven't started garden prep before now as we just had our first decent rain a week ago and the ground was pretty hard before that. So now I'll get as much done as I can until I get rained out. Last year we had a beautiful Nov and Dec so it just remains to be seen at which stage I have to quit until spring. No rain in the forecast for the next couple of weeks so with luck I'll at least get plowed, amended, and disked. With any time remaining I'll try and hill like Frank says although it will be by hand
because I won't have my hiller built until the snow comes (winter project).
Frank, at one point above you said plow, amend, disk, disk, plow. Would the last plowing take the place of hilling?
I don't have a middle buster and don't know I could use one if I did have one. Big trees in the area and also roots from trees I cut. I did plow this area about five years ago (then got sidetracked from garden prep) and only hit one big root in the corner of the proposed garden (live on the north side) but I think I'd hit a lot more with a deeper implement. Trees have been down about three years now so maybe in a few years when the roots have decomposed more I'll be able to use a middle buster.
Wish we had better sun but this is big timber country and I don't think the neighbors would appreciate me cutting their trees for the benefit of my garden. I have kept a row of smallish 50' screening trees at the property line but once our screen bushes develop maybe I'll cut some of them out too. Just got to plant the bushes first! That was on last fall's list, now next spring unless I can get a few in this fall!
With current ph at 6.5 to 7 I shouldn't need to add too much lime should I? Or will the addition of the organics plus manure make liming necessary to balance for decomposition?
Talk about nowhere, in Oregon folk would say "Where do you live?"
Answer:
"Heard of the boonies?"
"Yeah"
"Well when you get to the boonies go another twenty miles and you'll get to our place"
Thanks again, Ray
Our ph is pretty decent at about 6.5 to7.0 at various spots I tested last year but thanks for the reminder to test again. P & K are reasonably sufficient but N is very low, almost zero, so a good healthy dose of nitrogen is needed. I think I'll take amp's advice and get a bone fide soil test rather than simply relying on our home test kit. I'll do a parallel home test and it will be a measure of our kit's accuracy.
We get a good drop of oak leaves annually and they are only just now beginning to shed. We haven't had our first big drop yet, a bit late this year. I have a couple of ten ft diameter bins five feet high that I put the leaves into in the fall, watered and layered with with bagged chicken manure.
Based on the discussion and advice you have given I think I'll certainly limit this falls amendments to last years leaves, "leaf mold" as charlz calls it, and only my most decomposed materials along with some manure and extra nitrogen, probably dried blood. My charts say I need about 36oz (weight) per 100 sqft to get our nitrogen level up. Sound about right?
I'll take this years leaves and mix them with my lesser decomposed materials and mix with most of the steer manure I have and some more blood. Maybe I can get it good and hot and have decent compost in the spring. With a few more steel posts and another roll of wire I can probably make and fill five of the ten ft dia bins. Depending on getting access between snows should I turn the heap a couple of times in the winter or just leave it until spring?
We get zero rain here in the summer. Typical last rain is end of May and first rain in late Sept or mid Oct. (That, besides decades of mismanaged forests is why we get such terrible forest fires these days.) Lack of rain is why I haven't started garden prep before now as we just had our first decent rain a week ago and the ground was pretty hard before that. So now I'll get as much done as I can until I get rained out. Last year we had a beautiful Nov and Dec so it just remains to be seen at which stage I have to quit until spring. No rain in the forecast for the next couple of weeks so with luck I'll at least get plowed, amended, and disked. With any time remaining I'll try and hill like Frank says although it will be by hand
because I won't have my hiller built until the snow comes (winter project).Frank, at one point above you said plow, amend, disk, disk, plow. Would the last plowing take the place of hilling?
I don't have a middle buster and don't know I could use one if I did have one. Big trees in the area and also roots from trees I cut. I did plow this area about five years ago (then got sidetracked from garden prep) and only hit one big root in the corner of the proposed garden (live on the north side) but I think I'd hit a lot more with a deeper implement. Trees have been down about three years now so maybe in a few years when the roots have decomposed more I'll be able to use a middle buster.
Wish we had better sun but this is big timber country and I don't think the neighbors would appreciate me cutting their trees for the benefit of my garden
. I have kept a row of smallish 50' screening trees at the property line but once our screen bushes develop maybe I'll cut some of them out too. Just got to plant the bushes first! That was on last fall's list, now next spring unless I can get a few in this fall!With current ph at 6.5 to 7 I shouldn't need to add too much lime should I? Or will the addition of the organics plus manure make liming necessary to balance for decomposition?
Talk about nowhere, in Oregon folk would say "Where do you live?"
Answer:
"Heard of the boonies?"
"Yeah"
"Well when you get to the boonies go another twenty miles and you'll get to our place"
Thanks again, Ray
charlz
Elite Member
I was just thinking, do you have deer? If so I think your garden will get cleaned out unless you build a 'deer proof fence'
ampsucker
Platinum Member
using cottenseed or blood meal, the ratio of "lime" to add is roughly 1 part lime to four parts meal. the lime should be in the form of dolomitic lime (1/2), regular lime (1/4) and gypsum (1/4) which is not really lime but a source of Ca and Sulfur that adds S, an essential nutrient.
calcium and mg are both removed from the soil (incorporated into the plants you harvest from your garden and some washed away) so you should continue adding this small amount yearly even though your pH is ok.
if you would need to do a pH adjustment, you would add more or less as indicated by soil test.
on the Nitrogen numbers you provide, 2 lbs per 100 square foot seems high. check to see if your chart is indicating bulk material (which may be only 13% actual nitrogen) or lbs of available N. for example, when i am fertilizing a lawn, i would use about 2-3 lbs actual nitrogen per 1000 square feet, not 100 square feet! only very few veggies are benefitted by too much nitrogen (fast growers with lots of green material as the edible portion). things like tomatoes and squash will actually produce less fruit at the expense of vegetative growth (leaves and stems) in a high nitrogen environment.
also keep in mind as previously posted, that the first nitrogen you put down will be mostly bound up by the carbon already in the soil. this will then be released quickly after the soil temps warm up to around 70 degrees in the late spring. plan accordingly and plan to sidedress early spring crops with nitrogen after planting, then back off on any additions as soil temps warm to see where you are. then, probably sidedress high demand crops again mid to late summer.
with a low or no rain situation during the summer, i highly recommend you read the section of solomen's "gardening when it counts" on irrigation free spacing of garden plants. you will need about 4-8 times the planting area to make use of available soil water versus an "intensive" gardening plan unless you can irrigate heavily.
yes, deer are a pain in the *****. dollar signs intentional. the only way to solve the deer problem is spending money on a fence!
amp
calcium and mg are both removed from the soil (incorporated into the plants you harvest from your garden and some washed away) so you should continue adding this small amount yearly even though your pH is ok.
if you would need to do a pH adjustment, you would add more or less as indicated by soil test.
on the Nitrogen numbers you provide, 2 lbs per 100 square foot seems high. check to see if your chart is indicating bulk material (which may be only 13% actual nitrogen) or lbs of available N. for example, when i am fertilizing a lawn, i would use about 2-3 lbs actual nitrogen per 1000 square feet, not 100 square feet! only very few veggies are benefitted by too much nitrogen (fast growers with lots of green material as the edible portion). things like tomatoes and squash will actually produce less fruit at the expense of vegetative growth (leaves and stems) in a high nitrogen environment.
also keep in mind as previously posted, that the first nitrogen you put down will be mostly bound up by the carbon already in the soil. this will then be released quickly after the soil temps warm up to around 70 degrees in the late spring. plan accordingly and plan to sidedress early spring crops with nitrogen after planting, then back off on any additions as soil temps warm to see where you are. then, probably sidedress high demand crops again mid to late summer.
with a low or no rain situation during the summer, i highly recommend you read the section of solomen's "gardening when it counts" on irrigation free spacing of garden plants. you will need about 4-8 times the planting area to make use of available soil water versus an "intensive" gardening plan unless you can irrigate heavily.
yes, deer are a pain in the *****. dollar signs intentional. the only way to solve the deer problem is spending money on a fence!
amp
OP
RedDirt
Gold Member
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- 469
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- Northern Idaho
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amp,
You are correct about the nitrogen. My chart is for dried blood at 11%.
I'll check out Solomen's book, thanks for the reference. I have intended to drip irrigate. We have good water supply pretty cheap and our space is limited so the plot will likely be on the intensive side. I have the main line installed to near the area and "just" need to bring it into the garden. I have three stations run for that spot so part of the planting plan will be to get like watering needs grouped together.
BTW amp, we are almost neighbors! Wife shares 80 acres south of Mulvane with her brother and two cousins. Its been handed down, part of the original farm. Her Grandmother drove the buckboard onto the property from Missouri! A local farmer takes care of it for them, hoping for a double crop this year.
charlz,
Good to hear from you. How did that narrow trench bucket work out for you in the long run? I built the "banana" style and I am very pleased with it; no clogging ever.
Yeah, we got deer. So far not much problem with the orchard we planted in the spring but they like the grapes and I expect they will pay even more attention to the vegie garden. I still have not made up my mind on fencing. The property is fenced but it is just 3 and 4 ft hog wire with two barbed strands above that. We put in a "make-do" 5ft welded wire fence around the orchard. We interplanted the orchard with vegies and came out unscathed. Luck I guess! I'm considering 6 or 7 ft high around the garden. Anyone have any luck with those motion activated sprinklers to keep the deer out? Our German Shepherd is a house dog but maybe he'll need to start earning his keep!
You are correct about the nitrogen. My chart is for dried blood at 11%.
I'll check out Solomen's book, thanks for the reference. I have intended to drip irrigate. We have good water supply pretty cheap and our space is limited so the plot will likely be on the intensive side. I have the main line installed to near the area and "just" need to bring it into the garden. I have three stations run for that spot so part of the planting plan will be to get like watering needs grouped together.
BTW amp, we are almost neighbors! Wife shares 80 acres south of Mulvane with her brother and two cousins. Its been handed down, part of the original farm. Her Grandmother drove the buckboard onto the property from Missouri! A local farmer takes care of it for them, hoping for a double crop this year.
charlz,
Good to hear from you. How did that narrow trench bucket work out for you in the long run? I built the "banana" style and I am very pleased with it; no clogging ever.
Yeah, we got deer. So far not much problem with the orchard we planted in the spring but they like the grapes and I expect they will pay even more attention to the vegie garden. I still have not made up my mind on fencing. The property is fenced but it is just 3 and 4 ft hog wire with two barbed strands above that. We put in a "make-do" 5ft welded wire fence around the orchard. We interplanted the orchard with vegies and came out unscathed. Luck I guess! I'm considering 6 or 7 ft high around the garden. Anyone have any luck with those motion activated sprinklers to keep the deer out? Our German Shepherd is a house dog but maybe he'll need to start earning his keep!
I have a llama lady in my neighborhood. She has offered me all I want. Unfortunately, she beds them on gravel. Two or three applications of that would turn my gardens into driveways
You won't take out much of her gravel if you use a manure fork.
Just lift and shake lightly, maybe not even shake it.
I'd say it is worth a few gravel chips to get get the nitrogen.
bp fick
Super Member
What she does is bucket up the pens and lots. The manure to stone chip ratio is darn near 50-50. So, yeah, If I went and did her chores for a week and nit picked the poop carefully, I might not be leery of the llama leavings.
I pass on her poop pile, as is.