An Old Goat Ranch in Texas

[terry.dinerman]

Western-

Sorry about that, Bub! I told you I gotta stop smoking range cubes...

It sounds like you have very similar soil conditions to my property, and tho I have had more "Expert" opinions than I can carry in a bucket, none of them have a Master Plumber license to back them up.

I will give PVC an honest appraisal....a few dollars saved up front on an infrastructure project will seem pretty hollow when you are up to your knees in a muddy hole some February morning....

Thanks for taking the time!

Be Safe!

Terry

Terry,

It was Weldingisfun that got the $40 deal from his co-op, I should be so lucky.

As far as the water line, fortunately I have 2 master plumbers in the family, so I was able to "pick" their brains before I ran that far of a line. I was concerned with going with only 1-1/4 but that was what they recommended and that was confirmed by the plumbing supply house where I purchased my pipe. I almost went with "poly" too, about 1/3 cheaper but, I plan on tying in to the line in several places and I like the ease of working with pvc joints and connections.

I rented a ditch witch, ride on model for about $150+ tax per day. I was told that 14" would get me well below frost line,but I went 24" since it crossed my land and I plow and mow ect tra and don't want any surprises ( also opted for the 6" wide cutter). It took me about 3 hrs to dig the trench while my youngest son went behind me gluing the bell ends, took about 8 hrs total including the hook-ups at each end. I used the ditch witch to cover the trench since it has a small blade for this, I then used my tractor to pack the line and smooth out the rough spots.

I had to re-glue one joint my son "skimped" on, but luckily I found it before I buried the line during my pre-test. Its been 12 months and no problems so far.

Regrets... I wish I would have put in more main line shut offs at the time, but I was in a hurry and figured I would do it when I tied into the line. I have one at each end and 1 about 50' from the house under ground.

My dirt is sandy loam about 6" then goes to red clay mixed with caliche a little deeper. I only hit a few rocks and quite a few roots since my place is heavily wooded, no problem for the ditch witch. 3/4's of my run is a 4-5 degree downhill, dry creek, then 250' uphill to the house. I dug 3' in the creek bed and place that pipe in with allot of "bow" to allow a little movement. Needless to say with the elevation changes I have great pressure..

 

[Western]

No problem.. If I had only 1 run and never anticipated connecting into the line. I probably would have gone with the poly. I don't trust the connections I can't see.

When we bought the place the well was already in, actually I have 2 wells, the previous owner used poly to a couple of water troughs for his horses. I removed all I could and found leaks a the few connections I located. The connections where only the barbed type with with metal clamps and I have no idea how long they had been there, or if they were seated properly to start with so I may be short changing it somewhat.. PVC I can cut and splice anywhere, anytime, so that was my reasoning.. the pipe was $800 + change for 1500' a year ago..

 

[EddieWalker]

How far will you be running your water line?

How big will your home be and what are your water needs?

Pipe is the cheap part of most water line installs. Labor, tap fees, valves and sometimes boaring under the paved road are where you spend the most money.

The first thing you need to do is talk to the person in charge of your water supply. You need to find out what size pipe they have in front of you place and what size tap they will provide you. Just because you want a 1 inch tap, doesn't mean they will give it to you. There might be more people on that line already then they can handle, and they will only give you the minimum size. You might only have a 2 inch main line going down the street, which is very common, and you will only be able to put a 5/8 or 3/4 tap.

After you figure out what sized line you can get, you need to find out how much pressur the main line has. This can be tricky because some water mains will have more water pressure then they should, and they don't want to tell you that. Ideally, you want around 60 pounds at the house. More will blow out seals and cause both leaks and constant runnng water through the toilets. Low water pressure means that you will have to add a booster pump, a storage tank or other ways to increase water pressure. You really won't know this until you know what you are dealing with at the main.

With your land being so flat, pressure change from head or drop wont be too big of a problem. Frixtion and distance will affect pressure, but a size larger pipe will help to some degree. Going allot bigger then the tap doesn't accomplish very much, but in some cases it can cause problems with the water going flat and developing a funky taste.

I have a six inch water main going into my land because I'm going to develop my land into an RV Park. I have one house on that line right now, so I have to flush out the line at least once a year. I have to open it up and let out tens of thousands of gallons of water to keep it fresh tasting. The water department does this to all their fire hydrants from time to time. You might have seen a fire hydrant that was turned on and water running out of it. Sometimes it's to flush they system, other times they are doing it for other reasons.

A one inch tap for a water line is HUGE. It's more then enough for any sized home. The biggest mansions in town have 3/4, 7/8 and in rare cases, 1 inch taps. Remember, when you go from half an inch pipe to a one inch pipe, you are carrying something like 2 1/2 times more water through the larger pipe. All your faucets and end fittings will be half inch or less. With decent pressure, you cant turn all of them on and still have decent pressure.

With bigger water lines, gasketed ends are the only way to go. You don't glue them together, you just slide them into each other. It takes a special lubricant to get them to go together, but when it's done, it's water tight. The advantage to gasketed water lines is that they can move in and out with the natural movement of the soil. The ground is always moving. It happens year round, but with moisture and freezing conditions, it's worse in winter. Clay is bad about this, and some clay is allot worse then others. Sand is the very best material for pipes because it never moves on you. When I worked in California, we had to surround water mains with a foot of sand in every direction around the pipe. Because of earthquakes, the ground really moves allot there. Having sand all around the pipe ensures that the pipes are not pulled apart in most earthquakes.

I don't believe you can get one inch or smaller pipe with gaskets. I'm not sure how far down in size it goes, but think it's either 1 1/2 or 2 inch. Since there's no reason for you to run that big of a pipe, you don't have much of an option to use it. I just wanted to make you aware of it so you'd have an understanding of what's going on in the ground and how pipe is affected.

PVC Schedule 40 is going to be your only choice when buying water line. It comes in short, 10 foot sticks, or longer 20 foot sticks. The 20 foot pipes have the larger, better bells at the end of them. This is the only type of pipe to consider. It is the strongest and easiest to use.

When gluing PVC pipe together, you have to use purple primer and heavy duty, clear glue. There are other glues, but they are specialized for certain applications that don't apply to you and are not as strong as the heavy duty clear glue.

Primer and glue are misnamers. The primer is not a primer like a paint primer. In fact, it's a chemical that softens and prepairs the PVC matarial for the glue. It is absolutley required for a good seal. The glue is not a glue like a wood glue or any other type of glue. It's another chemical that when applied over the purple primer, creates a chemical reaction that melts the PVC material together. When done properly, the pipes are actually welded together.

While some people might recomend poly pipe for water lines, I would never use it for anything that I own, or for a client that is paying me to do the work for them. I've worked with four water districts in and around Tyler, and in every case, they tried poly pipe, and they now have long term issues with it failing. Thre is a limited life span with it, and they are now running crews 24/7 to deal with breaks in those water lines. I personally owned a house that had a failure, and had to wait several hours for a crew to show up because they were busy with other leaks. There are different grades and thicknesses to poly pipe, but from what I've been told and understand, none will last as long as schedule 40 PVC. They actually use C900 and similar type pipe for their bigger water mains, but that's another topic and one that doesn't really apply to you. That pipe is a sort of blue green in color.

The advantage to black poly is that you can get it in 300 foot lengths and it goes in super fast. Landscapers use it all the time for low budget sprinker installs. Of course, those are the jobs that I get to redo and fix for clients. Poly is also cheaper then Schedule 40, which is another advantage.

The water district will set up their meter and backflow valve at your property line. From there, it's up to you to install it how you want it. They will tell you how deep to make it. They wont care if you do that or not. Once the water goes through their meter, they don't really care what happens after that. You pay for every drop that goes through the meter, and it's up to you to either do it right, or pay for what you waste.

I would put a good quality, brass gate vavle right after the meter, on your property. If you ever have a water line break between the meter and your house you will really want to be able to turn it off real fast. While most water meters are easy enough to turn off yourself, some can be extremely tight. I was on a house over the summer where I couldnt' get it to turn off. I called the water depertment to do it, and they showed up with the King Kong of tools for turning the water on and off. There are so many meters that are super tight, that they had to build that monster. Even then, it took two of them to get it to turn. Sometimes, they break the meter because they are so tight!!! Because of that, I highly recomend that you put a good quality, brass gate valve in. NEVER use PVC valves. They are all junk and they will fail on you sooner or later.

Put another valve next to the house, and if you branch off of the main line, put a valve there too. After that, it's just a matter of plumbing what you want and where you want it. It's a good idea to buy a gauge to see how much actual water pressure you have at the end of you line, before it goes into your house. I had a house at the bottom of a hill, and from the meter to the house, the water pressure increased to over 100 pounds. Fortunately, a pressure reducer is cheap and easy to install.

Eddie

 

[terry.dinerman]

WOW-

Thanks Eddie!!!

The last time I got that much information out of someone was when I backed over my Master Chiefs dog...!

That was a Masters Level discussion on the subject in 5 min...NOTHING beats experience...

So - I am sold on PVC...between you and Bro "Western" it seems the best choice....my experience with HDPE was strictly industrial....the smallest stuff we worked with was 12" heavy-wall in brine and caustic soda service in an assortment of chemical plants. All fusion welded.

I helped develop and field test ultrasonic and low-power x-ray inspection systems to inspect up to 48" diameter HDPE...when properly done, the stuff is amazingly resilient to vibration, impact, temp fluctuations, chemical corrosion etc...

But you have to have IDEAL conditions and exacting technique to get secure connections...ergo, the need for non-destructive testing...

PVC will certainly be a better choice for a DIY project...

Now on to the Q/A....

• The line will run approx 800 feet to the house and then branch to the barn.
• The home will be 1,400sf with 3BR and 2 full baths.
• Taps for a future commercial venture at the front of the property (Love that road frontage!) and 3 paddocks will be installed down the length of the main run.
• Pipe size would depend on our extreme long term plan for the property...I would like to size the main to accommodate the possible future subdivision of this parcel into as many as 3 more home-sites...(this of course would be after I am long gone to DUST)...with that in mind what is your opinion on sizing here? I will probably be able to justify the larger diameter self-sealing products....(Each "paddock" drop could correspond with a home-site)
• The 4" main is already installed inside the front gate. Although I cannot quote the line pressure the flow thru the flush valve at the end of the line is such that I am trying to con Water Dude into allowing the local Volunteer Fire Department to put a hydrant fitting on it....you can never have enough hydrants out in the country...
• We are the end of the line and have no idea how many customers are ahead of us....this is a brand-new installation from a private supplier...
• As "consideration" for allowing a water-line easement down one side of our property (opposite my road, unfortunately) and giving access rights to his flush valve at our front gate, our Water Dude is waiving all hookup fees...he'll give us whatever we ask for as far as valving is concerned.
• I am in complete agreement with using only quality brass or bronze valves....I endured the torments of the dammed from PVC valving installed in the cargo pump system of one ship I was on...spent many fun-filled hours stuffed under the deck-plates replacing failed units.... Totally worthless...And they never fail in an easy-to-reach spot do they?

Well- Thanks again....For what you SHOULD have charged for the consultation I at least owe you a cuppa' Joe and a slice of pie....

So I'll end this installment by hoping you find a little Joy this season!

Up here in the mountains, we are so far from any sizable town, the night sky is ablaze with countless stars....I shall see in Christmas and the New Year outside, under that timeless canopy...as far from the works and troubles of Men as I can get.... for a moment at least ...

Later, My Friend...

Be Safe!

Terry

How far will you be running your water line?

How big will your home be and what are your water needs?

Pipe is the cheap part of most water line installs. Labor, tap fees, valves and sometimes boaring under the paved road are where you spend the most money.

The first thing you need to do is talk to the person in charge of your water supply. You need to find out what size pipe they have in front of you place and what size tap they will provide you. Just because you want a 1 inch tap, doesn't mean they will give it to you. There might be more people on that line already then they can handle, and they will only give you the minimum size. You might only have a 2 inch main line going down the street, which is very common, and you will only be able to put a 5/8 or 3/4 tap.

After you figure out what sized line you can get, you need to find out how much pressur the main line has. This can be tricky because some water mains will have more water pressure then they should, and they don't want to tell you that. Ideally, you want around 60 pounds at the house. More will blow out seals and cause both leaks and constant runnng water through the toilets. Low water pressure means that you will have to add a booster pump, a storage tank or other ways to increase water pressure. You really won't know this until you know what you are dealing with at the main.

With your land being so flat, pressure change from head or drop wont be too big of a problem. Frixtion and distance will affect pressure, but a size larger pipe will help to some degree. Going allot bigger then the tap doesn't accomplish very much, but in some cases it can cause problems with the water going flat and developing a funky taste.

I have a six inch water main going into my land because I'm going to develop my land into an RV Park. I have one house on that line right now, so I have to flush out the line at least once a year. I have to open it up and let out tens of thousands of gallons of water to keep it fresh tasting. The water department does this to all their fire hydrants from time to time. You might have seen a fire hydrant that was turned on and water running out of it. Sometimes it's to flush they system, other times they are doing it for other reasons.

A one inch tap for a water line is HUGE. It's more then enough for any sized home. The biggest mansions in town have 3/4, 7/8 and in rare cases, 1 inch taps. Remember, when you go from half an inch pipe to a one inch pipe, you are carrying something like 2 1/2 times more water through the larger pipe. All your faucets and end fittings will be half inch or less. With decent pressure, you cant turn all of them on and still have decent pressure.

With bigger water lines, gasketed ends are the only way to go. You don't glue them together, you just slide them into each other. It takes a special lubricant to get them to go together, but when it's done, it's water tight. The advantage to gasketed water lines is that they can move in and out with the natural movement of the soil. The ground is always moving. It happens year round, but with moisture and freezing conditions, it's worse in winter. Clay is bad about this, and some clay is allot worse then others. Sand is the very best material for pipes because it never moves on you. When I worked in California, we had to surround water mains with a foot of sand in every direction around the pipe. Because of earthquakes, the ground really moves allot there. Having sand all around the pipe ensures that the pipes are not pulled apart in most earthquakes.

I don't believe you can get one inch or smaller pipe with gaskets. I'm not sure how far down in size it goes, but think it's either 1 1/2 or 2 inch. Since there's no reason for you to run that big of a pipe, you don't have much of an option to use it. I just wanted to make you aware of it so you'd have an understanding of what's going on in the ground and how pipe is affected.

PVC Schedule 40 is going to be your only choice when buying water line. It comes in short, 10 foot sticks, or longer 20 foot sticks. The 20 foot pipes have the larger, better bells at the end of them. This is the only type of pipe to consider. It is the strongest and easiest to use.

When gluing PVC pipe together, you have to use purple primer and heavy duty, clear glue. There are other glues, but they are specialized for certain applications that don't apply to you and are not as strong as the heavy duty clear glue.

Primer and glue are misnamers. The primer is not a primer like a paint primer. In fact, it's a chemical that softens and prepairs the PVC matarial for the glue. It is absolutley required for a good seal. The glue is not a glue like a wood glue or any other type of glue. It's another chemical that when applied over the purple primer, creates a chemical reaction that melts the PVC material together. When done properly, the pipes are actually welded together.

While some people might recomend poly pipe for water lines, I would never use it for anything that I own, or for a client that is paying me to do the work for them. I've worked with four water districts in and around Tyler, and in every case, they tried poly pipe, and they now have long term issues with it failing. Thre is a limited life span with it, and they are now running crews 24/7 to deal with breaks in those water lines. I personally owned a house that had a failure, and had to wait several hours for a crew to show up because they were busy with other leaks. There are different grades and thicknesses to poly pipe, but from what I've been told and understand, none will last as long as schedule 40 PVC. They actually use C900 and similar type pipe for their bigger water mains, but that's another topic and one that doesn't really apply to you. That pipe is a sort of blue green in color.

The advantage to black poly is that you can get it in 300 foot lengths and it goes in super fast. Landscapers use it all the time for low budget sprinker installs. Of course, those are the jobs that I get to redo and fix for clients. Poly is also cheaper then Schedule 40, which is another advantage.

The water district will set up their meter and backflow valve at your property line. From there, it's up to you to install it how you want it. They will tell you how deep to make it. They wont care if you do that or not. Once the water goes through their meter, they don't really care what happens after that. You pay for every drop that goes through the meter, and it's up to you to either do it right, or pay for what you waste.

I would put a good quality, brass gate vavle right after the meter, on your property. If you ever have a water line break between the meter and your house you will really want to be able to turn it off real fast. While most water meters are easy enough to turn off yourself, some can be extremely tight. I was on a house over the summer where I couldnt' get it to turn off. I called the water depertment to do it, and they showed up with the King Kong of tools for turning the water on and off. There are so many meters that are super tight, that they had to build that monster. Even then, it took two of them to get it to turn. Sometimes, they break the meter because they are so tight!!! Because of that, I highly recomend that you put a good quality, brass gate valve in. NEVER use PVC valves. They are all junk and they will fail on you sooner or later.

Put another valve next to the house, and if you branch off of the main line, put a valve there too. After that, it's just a matter of plumbing what you want and where you want it. It's a good idea to buy a gauge to see how much actual water pressure you have at the end of you line, before it goes into your house. I had a house at the bottom of a hill, and from the meter to the house, the water pressure increased to over 100 pounds. Fortunately, a pressure reducer is cheap and easy to install.

Eddie

 

[Scotty370]

All I know about goats, you could stuff inside a Souvlaki Pocket......Oh.....wait.....That's Lamb! See I told Ya!! Heard somewhere that to test a goat fence enclosure, you throw a bucket of water against it, and any gets on the other side, it's not tight enough! Welcome aboard TBN! I'll be watching your progress with interest! Merry Christmas!! ~Scotty

 

[EddieWalker]

With all your future plans, I'd want a two inch line. This will allow you to use gaskets pipes and have more then enough water for anything you want. EVER!! hahaha

Inch and a half will also be plenty for three to five houses, but I'm not sure about being able to get it in gasketed line.

The concern with larger pipe over distance is how much movement you'll get in the soil. This is where local expertise is critical. It doesn't matter what I've done here, or somebody esle has done there, because your soil is unique to your area. The expert is the water department. THEY KNOW what the soil is doing year round and what works.

What you do need to do is plat the property with what you want and where you want it. This will be the master plan and once done, is pretty much written in stone. While you can always change it, it's very expensive to do so because you'll be clearing and building towards this master plan. Where you put your utilities will be based on the plat. Knowing this information beforehand will save you money. Usually ALLOT of money.

As for fire hydrands, you need a six inch water main for those. While there are special, smaller fire hydrant that will work off of a four inch line, those are not as good as the full sized hydrants. In my case, I will get a special rate on my insurance with a fire hydrant on my land. While I still want the six inch water main, a four inch would probably have been plenty, but the six inch line gurantees that I'll never have a water shortage, and I can have the fire hydrant.

Eddie

 

[terry.dinerman]

Merry Christmas Eddie...and to all my new neighbors here on TBN....!

I am spending yet another Holiday on foreign shores...one of the lessons you learn doing this sort of thing is the value of friends, old and new, and the importance of keeping in touch...

Backintheday I used to finish up the maintenance work assigned to my watch in the engine room...always on nights...then clean up and go up to the wheelhouse where I would fill out my logs and then spend the rest of the watch on radar picket...and write a few lines to Precious Bride on a yellow pad...

When it was full...I would send it home via the next crewchange...she still has those old yellow pads in a cedar chest...GOSH - I was a sappy writer in those days!

Needless to say, "International Roaming" cellular service and the Internet have really improved my life...and let me stay in touch with folks like you.

Thank you for taking the time out of your lives to share mine...

Now go and find someone you love and TELL THEM SO, face to face. You won't regret it.

Now on to Business -

PIPE SIZES-
I figured you would need at least a 2" line to supply that many users...Excellent! There will be a significant savings if the self-seal pipe is available in 1 1/2"...I will just have to do my homework regarding pipe suppliers....somewhere between Huntsville, College Station, Houston and Dallas, there has got to be a plumbing supply house with everything I need...

SOIL MOVEMENT-
We are VERY lucky...the shallower soils under our property are very well drained...and stable...the dense yellow clay down deep doesn't heave and swell like the "gumbo" down on the coast...the only reason folks around here develop leaks is the dog or raccoons tear the insulation off the water riser going into the house and we get the rare freeze, or they physically tear the pipes up or knock them down digging or mowing...

ADVICE-
Besides you and the rest of the Sages here on TBN, I have a very good reservoir of "Local Knowledge" in the form of my In-Laws, who live a mile down the road, the fellow who sold us the property, who we still share a fence with, our banker, who lives across the road from my In-Laws, the entire local Volunteer Fire Department....and....if I run out of opinions, the denizens of the beloved "Cafe", including a bona-fide Texas treasure...."Doc" Price, a certified curmudgeon who has lived in the same little dog-trot shack out in the middle of his ranch for most of his 91 years, still runs his own cattle (tho on TWO canes to help him move fast enough to chase em) and drives his old pickup to town every day to dispense wisdom.

There is a bet going on who drives SLOWER....me or "Doc"...

I think "Doc" still has a Christmas card from Sam Houston hanging on his mantle...I want to be him when I grow up...

Anyway - I am not prone to jumping off into a project of this size and cost without throwing a sounding lead over the side first...all things in their good time...

MAPS AND PLATS AND PLANS...(Oh My!!!)
Once again, we find ourselves on the same page where Planning is concerned...That GPS unit I carry on my "adventures" gets a real workout.

Tho I choose not to post it on this forum, I began a detailed plan of the property the moment we started looking at it.....

The Plan includes such things as existing fence-lines, utility pole locations and numbers, adjacent roads, proposed improvements....the works...

Every move is planned...all the results charted...and since our plans are multi-generational, one motive is to record our efforts for our descendants to marvel over...

FIRE HYDRANTS-
The flush valve that terminates the "bitter end" of the water line at the front of our property has a 4" PVC riser and elbow coming up out of the ground vault to direct the water thru our fence and into the ditch adjacent.

Water Dude has the combo to our gate...his equipment stays secure and I know the line is flushed regularly...a good deal.

Adding a "steamer connection" so the Engineer can quickly hook up his fill line and putting a lock on the vault with a combination for the VFD to access the flush valve is the intended fix....it is NOT intended to support a 6" LDH connection to a pumper, but to provide a quick fill point for a tanker....

A lot of folks in the area with tanks (ponds) close to the roads place "dry hydrants" to allow drafting....water to fight fires is a precious commodity outside of the city limits...it is just good sense to be prepared...

Should my insurance co give a discount for this improvement, well it is an added benefit...but even if they don't...it's cheap...

Of course, gaining this accommodation from both the Water Dude and the VFD will most likely require that I join the Fire Department...since I will then be they YOUNGEST member...well...it ain't gonna be pretty....an old fat guy rolling all that hose...

<sigh>

I have to do stuff like this...I've been in Fire and EMS since I was a pup....it is just part of how I live...even in the city that green hose on the roll-up rack by the kitchen door isn't just for for the garden...out in the country you have to be even more willing to prepare for the possiblity that help may not be easy to come by....

Sounds like your project will be SUPER well supplied with water for domestic and emergency needs...with what you have said about supply line sizes....you gonna put in a water show like the "Bellagio"???!!!!

You'd be the only campground in Texas that has one.....

Be Safe!

T

With all your future plans, I'd want a two inch line. This will allow you to use gaskets pipes and have more then enough water for anything you want. EVER!! hahaha

Inch and a half will also be plenty for three to five houses, but I'm not sure about being able to get it in gasketed line.

The concern with larger pipe over distance is how much movement you'll get in the soil. This is where local expertise is critical. It doesn't matter what I've done here, or somebody esle has done there, because your soil is unique to your area. The expert is the water department. THEY KNOW what the soil is doing year round and what works.

What you do need to do is plat the property with what you want and where you want it. This will be the master plan and once done, is pretty much written in stone. While you can always change it, it's very expensive to do so because you'll be clearing and building towards this master plan. Where you put your utilities will be based on the plat. Knowing this information beforehand will save you money. Usually ALLOT of money.

As for fire hydrands, you need a six inch water main for those. While there are special, smaller fire hydrant that will work off of a four inch line, those are not as good as the full sized hydrants. In my case, I will get a special rate on my insurance with a fire hydrant on my land. While I still want the six inch water main, a four inch would probably have been plenty, but the six inch line gurantees that I'll never have a water shortage, and I can have the fire hydrant.

Eddie

 

[dcyrilc]

Welcome to TBN. I've been reading your thread and it sound like you have a full life ahead. Farms definately keep you from getting bored as you get older. We have 17 acres and it seem like its a lot more work than it was ten years ago. We still have one goat left, and I can tell you that they are often too smart for their own good. I like the cows better. They don't usually try to think up ways to get into mischief. Goats DO!

Have fun and Merry Christmas!

 

[ultrarunner]

Always a lot to learn from reading these posts...

I learned why building new homes in my city neighborhood is a problem... We have 2" water mains and that includes Fire Hydrants.

The no growth people always rally to stop putting in larger lines because inadequate water service limits growth...

It's a real problem because the 60 year old 2" galvanized lines are starting to break on a regular basis...

 

[terry.dinerman]

My favorite Goat Guru's "Goat Fence Test" is to light up a cheap cigar and blow smoke at the fence....if the smoke goes thru, so will the goats...

I did a stretch in prison ( As a MEDIC people!!!!) and the guard Captain used to remind us all regularly that we went home to our families at the end of the shift but the "clients" had 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to work out how to beat the system....

I use the same philosophy regarding livestock enclosures....this includes fencing in (or OUT) goats, children, salesmen, dogs, feral hogs, relatives, meter readers, horses, tax assessors, etc.....

They are gonna play their game...I gotta play mine....

Now if I could only find a cheap source for razor wire.....Precious Bride is leaning more towards anti-personnel mines....

Be Safe!

Terry

All I know about goats, you could stuff inside a Souvlaki Pocket......Oh.....wait.....That's Lamb! See I told Ya!! Heard somewhere that to test a goat fence enclosure, you throw a bucket of water against it, and any gets on the other side, it's not tight enough! Welcome aboard TBN! I'll be watching your progress with interest! Merry Christmas!! ~Scotty