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  1. #51
    Elite Member Redneck in training's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domush View Post
    ah, the wild world of government subsidies. Other people are stealing from me, so I must steal from other people. Looters mentality. As long as you are less of a crook than someone you know, you feel righteous.

    It's a race to see who can get the most welfare while still complaining about those "deadbeats" (read: other people) who get welfare.

    Funny, I never thought of theft as an investment.

    Sorry, am I not being civil enough? Thank you for making my taxes higher to offset your welfare. There now you can feel all better.

    I do think it is great to see solar getting popular, but not at taxpayer expense. People requiring the addition of welfare credits in order to make the cost feasible just goes to show solar simply isn't yet meant for people who have other power options.

    Right now, at rates of $0.13 per/kwh, solar isn't an investment, it's an alternative, only the welfare check makes it pay off. Besides the green-ness, it isn't yet value added. There is very little, if any, net gain with current technology, as redneck's power output and monetary math reveals.

    In other words, unless your per kilowatt costs are far higher, just steal from your neighbors and forget the array. The result is the same, just with slightly more carbon emissions and far less red tape.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using TractorByNet
    You are a first guy I know off who refused to take tax break for children and house mortgage. It is government policy to encourage socially beneficial programs such as house ownership, having children and in my case install alt energy system. In fact I would do it even if there is no subsidy. It will pay for itself without it too just three years longer. Our rate is 10.9 cent/kWh btw. Solar (if you can install it DIY) makes financial sense even without subsidy. If I invest 53K and get 3600/year back that is 6.8% ROI without subsidy and 9.5% with it. I also bet that electric rates will go up. US generating capacity is close to maximum so building new generating capacity and transmission lines is unavoidable. I bet it will be taxpayer subsidized too and we will be still hit with higher rates. I bet that electric rates will go up faster than inflation. If you don't want to take the subsidy you don't have to. It still makes sense to go solar.
    Domush. I looked at your tractor restoration. You are very capable guy. You can install solar just with some simple guidance. You should check the numbers.

  2. #52
    Elite Member Redneck in training's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave1949 View Post
    Ladia,

    Last night I played around with PVWatts(ver. 2) for your general location. I found that using optimal seasonal panel angles of: (55* Nov. Dec., Jan. Feb.), (41* Mar., Sep., Oct.) and (25* Apr-Aug.) results in roughly a 5% annual gain in panel output. That is lower than I expected. It amounted to an additional 57 kWh per 1kW of system capacity per year.

    Just checking
    I will reserch it further before I invest in more complicated system. I saw a calculator elsewhere on internet that had tilt only option for calcullation but I can't find it now.

  3. #53
    Super Member dave1949's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domush View Post
    ah, the wild world of government subsidies. Other people are stealing from me, so I must steal from other people. Looters mentality. As long as you are less of a crook than someone you know, you feel righteous.

    It's a race to see who can get the most welfare while still complaining about those "deadbeats" (read: other people) who get welfare.

    Funny, I never thought of theft as an investment.

    Sorry, am I not being civil enough? Thank you for making my taxes higher to offset your welfare. There now you can feel all better.

    I do think it is great to see solar getting popular, but not at taxpayer expense. People requiring the addition of welfare credits in order to make the cost feasible just goes to show solar simply isn't yet meant for people who have other power options.

    Right now, at rates of $0.13 per kw/ h, solar isn't an investment, it's an alternative, only the welfare check makes it pay off. Besides the green-ness, it isn't yet value added. There is very little, if any, net gain with current technology, as redneck's power output and monetary math reveals.

    In other words, unless your per kilowatt costs are far higher, just steal from your neighbors and forget the array. The result is the same, just with slightly more carbon emissions and far less red tape.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using TractorByNet
    For most situations, subsidies are not needed for solar to be a viable replacement cost for fossil fuels. A lot of activities are subsidized for various reasons. In the case of solar, wind, geothermal and biomass, the reason is to reduce air and water pollutants, greenhouse gases, and improve energy independence--all of these things have a cost to society which we pay for one way or another.

    The costs inherent in fossil fuel extraction and use are reduced when greener alternatives are used, subsidies are a recognition of that fact. It's not welfare or theft, it is transferring costs to better solutions which represent a net savings.

    The air you breathe is cleaned by every subsidized solar PV system installed, even though it isn't on your roof, and your personal cost is limited to a tiny percentage of the subsidy. The need for and associated costs of increased power generation and distribution grid capacity are reduced by alternate, local electricity generation. You ought to be cheering on people who adopt alternate energy.
    "Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end ..."
    When there is a huge solar energy spill, it is called a "nice day"!

  4. #54
    Super Member dave1949's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck in training View Post
    I will reserch it further before I invest in more complicated system. I saw a calculator elsewhere on internet that had tilt only option for calcullation but I can't find it now.
    I did it by using the panel angle rule of thumb: your latitude, your latitude plus and minus 15*. I looked for the best result in each month at each of those angles to build a composite optimal year, then compared that to a fixed 41* year. Five percent could easily get eaten-up by increased hardware requirements for the tilting capability.
    "Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end ..."
    When there is a huge solar energy spill, it is called a "nice day"!

  5. #55
    Elite Member Redneck in training's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alien View Post
    Domush. We pay 23c KWh here in Oz. Makes solar very attractive.
    We have radio show run by Rush Limbaugh. He is entertiner that can say anything ridiculous and imbecile because he doesn't need to do anything about that. For some people who listen to him it is like a gospel though. They think that he has all the answers when he has not. If he says that solar is not doable they belive it without checking the numbers. Those are probably the same people who believe that wrestling is real.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Have you found a bank yet willing to make you the loan? I am going to be surprised but hoping you do.

    Please let us know the name of the bank. They may get some additional business. TVA is pushing microsolar installations by private individuals and my former college roomate is manager of the department that oversees them.

    One of the problems has been financing. Solyndra and company have not endured the banks to this technology and they are very wary of solar. They are additionally skeptical of homeowner installed systems.

  7. #57
    Elite Member MotorSeven's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck in training View Post
    We have radio show run by Rush Limbaugh. He is entertiner that can say anything ridiculous and imbecile because he doesn't need to do anything about that. For some people who listen to him it is like a gospel though. They think that he has all the answers when he has not. If he says that solar is not doable they belive it without checking the numbers. Those are probably the same people who believe that wrestling is real.
    Folks are also still feeding off the old solar panel "issues" from 20-30 years ago. Funny thing is that most of those built and installed back then are still producing power.

    Solar has advanced in leaps and bounds just in the past 5 years. No system is perfect, but solar is a huge improvement over many other forms of electrical production. I've said this a few times before, but could you imagine where we would be right now in this country if every single family home had some type of solar system in operation? I'm still shocked that Florida has so few solar systems up and running...what a waste of sunshine.
    2008 KIOTI DK40Se Hydro
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  8. #58
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domush View Post
    It's a race to see who can get the most welfare while still complaining about those "deadbeats" (read: other people) who get welfare.
    Well your home state subsidizes the coal industry at a level of about $115M per year, and the fed government subsidizes them in some form of tax credits at a level of about $2B per year depending on how carefully you disentangle the complicated trail of money. That's probably where your electricity is coming from.
    Ethanol was subsidized at $6B per year until last year when it became more complicated to figure out how much they're getting. That's probably what you burn in your car.
    The nuclear power industry has been subsidized for the last 50 years at an average rate of 7c/kwh, which means it's still cheaper to just buy the power on the open market and give it away to people rather than build reactors. My state happens to be 50% nuclear, so I'm benefiting from that.
    No one seems to know for sure how much the oil and gas industry gets, but estimates range from $10B-50B per year. They make the stuff you're burning in those tractors and trucks in your signature file.
    Solar subsidies are still small compared to other forms of energy but likely to grow if they follow the same path as every other form of energy the country has pursued.
    It makes me happier to see an every day guy like Redneck get some of that subsidy rather than Exxon.
    Kubota B2710, New Holland CM274 front mower, Toro Zmaster ZTR, Ford 908 bush hog, New Idea manure spreader, Swisher trail mower

  9. #59
    Platinum Member Domush's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck in training View Post
    You are a first guy I know off who refused to take tax break for children and house mortgage.
    You've never met someone with no kids and/or mortgage? Easiest way to refuse something is to not put yourself in a position where you must choose.

    Though the solar welfare comparison is apples/oranges with either of these examples. Mortgage interest is an either/or deduction overridden by the standard deduction (a deduction fairly available to all, not just mortgage holders) and child credit are just that, credits which are paid even to those who don't pay taxes at all. The solar credit is calculated in addition to the standard deduction, still making it welfare, though less so than child credits, as you can't get a check cut if you don't pay taxes at all.

    It will pay for itself without it too just three years longer. Our rate is 10.9 cent/kWh btw. Solar (if you can install it DIY) makes financial sense even without subsidy. If I invest 53K and get 3600/year back that is 6.8% ROI without subsidy and 9.5% with it.
    Do you have some links you can share as to where you are getting your panels, and also where you are getting the numbers you are using for the math (panel efficiency, local sun rates, etc)? I'd like to learn some more about this, as I'm having a tough time finding even a single article which states it being worth the cost without government subsidies.

    I also bet that electric rates will go up.
    No doubt there

    US generating capacity is close to maximum so building new generating capacity and transmission lines is unavoidable.
    There is an economy of scale with power suppliers, though.

    You should check the numbers.
    I haven't looked in years, so I'm curious how it has improved over the past decade. This is a great topic, especially with the feasibility math. Looking forward to reading where you are getting your numbers from. KY isn't the best state for uber-sunlight. Looking at some maps, it seems Iowa is pretty close to CA in total sunlight, so you are pretty well positioned for using them if you decide to pull the trigger on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MotorSeven
    Folks are also still feeding off the old solar panel "issues" from 20-30 years ago. Funny thing is that most of those built and installed back then are still producing power.
    I would hope they are still producing after 20+ years, as at today's panel prices (which one would assume are cheaper than 20 years ago), using the numbers given here in this thread (53K cost w/$3,600/year income), it will take 15 years to just get your money back from a DIY install, assuming zero maintenance costs (not realistic), perfectly clean cells (not realistic), 0% deterioration rate (also not realistic) and 100% energy utilization (retail KW/h rate) over that entire 15 years. The ongoing costs can be offset by increasing electric rates, so that may be a wash or even bump it up by a year or two, making it 13-14 years until the first penny of actual cost savings. Just imagine how long those 20-30 year old PV cells will still have to produce in the future before they become a net gain for their purchasers.

    Where in this math are these old issues you speak of?
    Last edited by Domush; 09-13-2012 at 11:41 AM.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ― Aristotle

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  10. #60
    Elite Member Redneck in training's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25 kW Solar power project in Iowa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domush View Post
    You've never met someone with no kids and/or mortgage? Easiest way to refuse something is to not put yourself in a position where you must choose.

    Though the solar welfare comparison is apples/oranges with either of these examples. Mortgage interest is an either/or deduction overridden by the standard deduction (a deduction fairly available to all, not just mortgage holders) and child credit are just that, credits which are paid even to those who don't pay taxes at all. The solar credit is calculated in addition to the standard deduction, still making it welfare, though less so than child credits, as you can't get a check cut if you don't pay taxes at all.



    Do you have some links you can share as to where you are getting your panels, and also where you are getting the numbers you are using for the math (panel efficiency, local sun rates, etc)? I'd like to learn some more about this, as I'm having a tough time finding even a single article which states it being worth the cost without government subsidies.



    No doubt there



    There is an economy of scale with power suppliers, though.



    I haven't looked in years, so I'm curious how it has improved over the past decade. This is a great topic, especially with the feasibility math. Looking forward to reading where you are getting your numbers from. KY isn't the best state for uber-sunlight. Looking at some maps, it seems Iowa is pretty close to CA in total sunlight, so you are pretty well positioned for using them if you decide to pull the trigger on it.



    I would hope they are still producing after 20+ years, as at today's panel prices (which one would assume are cheaper than 20 years ago), using the numbers given here in this thread (53K cost w/$3,600/year income), it will take 15 years to just get your money back from a DIY install, assuming zero maintenance costs (not realistic), perfectly clean cells (not realistic), 0% deterioration rate (also not realistic) and 100% energy utilization (retail KW/h rate) over that entire 15 years. The ongoing costs can be offset by increasing electric rates, so that may be a wash or even bump it up by a year or two, making it 13-14 years until the first penny of actual cost savings. Just imagine how long those 20-30 year old PV cells will still have to produce in the future before they become a net gain for their purchasers.

    Where in this math are these old issues you speak of?
    Grid-Tie Systems
    Here is the source of the panels. I will not buy racking there due to high cost. I will make the supporting structure out treated wood and use only mounting rails and associated hardware under the panels (due to corrosion issues).
    I might get some hardware here: CivicSolar | Solar Panels - Photovoltaic Cells - Solar Power - Inverter - Charge Controller - Battery
    The panels were $3.50/W last year. The same panels are about $1.20/W today. The world economical crisis is also opportunity I suppose. Pretty much at the time of low demand for panels due to cancelled subsidies in many European countries China put on line the largest silicon wafer plant on the world and Chinese panels brought the price down to current level. You might buy Chinese panel of pretty good quality for less than $1/W. The prices might or might not last. That is the hard bet.

    The calculator is at NREL PVWatts Viewer

    Enter zip code.
    Send it to PV watts
    enter size of the system
    Edit DC to AC derate factor. I use 0.8 even though the real efficeincy is probably somewhat better. 0.77 is quite conservative number.
    Edit cost of power if different than default.
    Edit tilt and azimut as needed.
    Calcualte.

    Do the math.
    Hey. This is America. We buy a lot of stuff we want but not need. People buy nice trucks, expensive cars, diamonds (tell me about those) where ROI is negative from day one. If you buy new 50K truck guys will congratulate you (there are many posts of this kind). If you buy 50K solar system people ask about how prudent is the decision. Well I drive old junker and I will buy solar system. At least the ROI is not negative from day one. I will do it because I want one. I rest my case.

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