AC and DC in same trench?

   / AC and DC in same trench?
  • Thread Starter
#31  
Hi BeezFun,
Do you have any pictures and can you post technical data? I am specifically interested how you mounted the panels. Did you do it DIY or did you hire somebody?
We intend installing 24kW grid tie system in next few weeks. We should close on a loan tomorrow and order all the stuff shortly after.

No pictures, haven't done anything yet except price components based on first order estimate of what's required. I helped my friend mount his panels in New Mexico, we put them on the ground and used angle frames that looked like this. The frames are sitting on railroad ties spiked into the ground. We also put in Tposts and cut them off like tent stakes that anchor cables attached to the top edges of the frame as extra protection against the wind.

I'll do the work myself, but the permit requires a licensed electrician to tie into the utility service. I've gone back and forth sizing things because wife and I can't really decide what "needs" to be running if power goes out, which is pretty common around here. This all started sizing a backup generator because our power is out so much. The guy I helped who lives in NM suggested I just look at pricing solar and size things to be sure we could go 2-3 days with no service. The more I looked at it, the more sense that made.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #32  
There are few very long DC high voltage lines around the world. I saw one somewhere in Russia from hydro plant in the middle of nowhere to big city. The turbines produced three phase AC that run electric motor running high voltage DC generator feeding two wire DC line. At the other end was DC motor running AC generator. DC line doesn't suffer skin effect as high voltage AC line so it can carry the same current as AC but at significantly lower voltage. DC lines are cheaper to build but are not popular due to issues with the AC/DC/AC conversion.
Skin effect at 50 or 60Hz -- go on now. :confused2:

Wrooster
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #33  
I'll do the work myself, but the permit requires a licensed electrician to tie into the utility service. I've gone back and forth sizing things because wife and I can't really decide what "needs" to be running if power goes out, which is pretty common around here. This all started sizing a backup generator because our power is out so much. The guy I helped who lives in NM suggested I just look at pricing solar and size things to be sure we could go 2-3 days with no service. The more I looked at it, the more sense that made.

It's interesting that you are considering solar for backup power during outages. I have heard that most people nowadays go grid-tied so as to benefit from the reduction in electric bills. How big of a battery bank do you intend to get? What is the expected life of the cells? How do those economics work out? Do you have a solution that will allow you to both maintain charge on a bank AND sell back power to the grid when possible?
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #34  
At 60 Hz, the wavelength is about 16 feet.

This conversation is what you get when you ask an RF engineer to talk about electrical wiring. There is some overlap there, but ultimately, if an electrician disagrees with me, you should do what he says. But if an electrician disagrees with me as to how to wire up a radio antenna, then listen to me.
Frequency is 60Hz? Lambda is 16 feet? RF engineer? Really?

Check your math. 10e6.

Wrooster
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #35  
There are two things to consider.
1.) The EM radiation decreases with cube of distance. In other words even few inches of separation make big difference.
2.) The common direct burial cable is twisted. The twist cancels out crosstalk to large degree to parallel conductors.

Therefore I think that to put 600 V DC and 110 AC in the same trench but in separate conduits is perfectly OK.
I am guessing that you will be using plastic conduit.

FYI As long as metal conduit contacts ground it doesn't work as signal shield. Shield works only if it is impossible to pass current through it. In other words it has to be isolated and then connected only on one end to common potential. Think about (in example) lightning strike causing current flow through the conduit. The EM will effect whatever is in the conduit. In example it could cause voltage spike in 110 VAC.
Everything needed to VASTLY increase your knowledge of the topic you are trying to cover above is contained in two easy-to-read texts -- which are both full of practical examples:

Noise Reduction in Electronic Systems, Ott
and
EMI control in the Design of PCBs, White

Wrooster
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #36  
Skin effect at 50 or 60Hz -- go on now. :confused2:

Wrooster

It is caused by eddy current perpendicular to the conductor. Resulting magnetic field pushes electrons outward. To prevent this the conductor has to be of small diameter or composed of multiple isolated conductors or it can also be hollow. For 60 Hz the skin is about 0.25". So if the wire is 0.5" or thicker skin effect become significant. As frequency goes higher the skin gets thinner.
Another AC loss is that eddy current generates heat.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #37  
Frequency is 60Hz? Lambda is 16 feet? RF engineer? Really?

Are you really going to question my credentials because, when I was whipping off a reply to a person on a forum, on a tangential topic of only theoretical interest, I accidentally entered MHz instead of Hz and didn't catch it?
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #38  
It is caused by eddy current perpendicular to the conductor. To prevent it the conductor has to be of small diameter or composed of multiple isolated conductors or it can also be hollow. For 60 Hz the skin is about 0.25". So if the wire is 0.5" or thicker skin effect become significant. As frequency goes higher the skin gets thinner.
The skin depth in copper at 60Hz is about 8.5 mm, or just over 5/16 in. In normal residential wiring power applications such as the type the OP is considering, skin effect is unavoidable and therefore the entire cross section of the conductor is carrying current. That said ... In general, one is not trying to "prevent it" (it being skin effect) as you noted above; instead, one is trying to optimize conductor geometry to work within the skin effect boundary, and not waste (expensive) conductor material on non-current-carrying cross section.

Examine high performance coaxial cable, for example Times LMR400. It has an aluminum core center conductor with a bonded copper overlay. Compared to using an aluminum-only center conductor, the bonded copper overlay provides lower DC resistance, lower RF attenuation, and higher velocity factor. And of course the far end of the optimization is a waveguide.

Wrooster
 
   / AC and DC in same trench?
  • Thread Starter
#39  
It's interesting that you are considering solar for backup power during outages. I have heard that most people nowadays go grid-tied so as to benefit from the reduction in electric bills. How big of a battery bank do you intend to get? What is the expected life of the cells? How do those economics work out? Do you have a solution that will allow you to both maintain charge on a bank AND sell back power to the grid when possible?

This has been an evolution in my thinking. Our power is out at least once a month, several times a year it is out for extended periods (> 3 hours). The prospect of spending $5K for a generator that never recouped any of my investment and only got used 1 week out of the year, or $10K for batteries doing the same thing, vs a solar install for $20K that might have a chance of paying itself off someday, I picked the solar install. I also am concerned about energy prices, nothing seems to get cheaper. I considered grid tied with no batteries and a generator, but one of the intangible costs of installing a generator for me is putting in a gas line under an existing driveway and turnaround, and through an area with old and valuable trees that I don't want to risk losing. So although batteries are an expensive backup system, they make sense for me.

I'm still debating the size of the battery bank, primary sticking point is whether or not we need to run the central air. My wife runs business out of our home, sees clients here, so if it's summer and we can't cool the house we lose money and good will by canceling patient appointments. There is also the uncertainty when power goes off of how long it will last- do we cancel the whole days appointments, or just the next few? We also have well and septic, so no power, no water and no flushing in the lower level, yuck. The cost for materials is going to be somewhere in the $20-25K range, we can sell back to the power company at about 6c/kwh, there'll be some savings on taxes for energy credit and the business "pays" via some fraction of the installation being a deductible business expense. In the long run will we ever get our money back, who knows, probably depends more on what happens with energy prices in the next 10-15 years.

My friend has a battery on his solar install that he did in the early 90s, it's still fine. Not sure if that's normal but my understanding is quality batteries last 15-20 years. Especially with newer chargers that monitor batteries and exercise them regularly.

Yes there's a way to keep the batteries charged and sell power back. My understanding is the way it actually works is the grid charges the batteries and the array feeds back to power company when power is on. When power goes off, array charges batteries and powers house. The batteries are also exercised on some regular basis so they experience some discharge. I'm having someone design the system, I don't know enough to do it myself. I met with the guy once, he asked lots of questions that we have to make up our mind on before we can actually buy anything or get a final design.
 
   / AC and DC in same trench? #40  
It's hard for me to imagine that you're getting a whole-house solar system, with battery bank, for $20k. When I priced a solar system for my home, even not counting air conditioning, it was something like $70k. Maybe the difference is the amount of sun we get.
 
 
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