davedj1
Veteran Member
Sorry, I just realized that pacerron covered it already.
dave
Sometimes my typing over thinks my thinking....LOL
dave
Sometimes my typing over thinks my thinking....LOL
Building a stick frame house in the woods in 90 days
- Thread starter pclausen
- Start date
mjncad
Super Member
You and I know it's a money losing proposition to have to redo shoddy work; but the builders who take the cheap approach are essentially gambling that no one will notice and/or complain when something pukes prematurely due to crappy work. Apparently their gamble pays off enough that they continue cranking out garbage.
We have some strange attitudes toward residential construction given that a home is often the most expensive product we will ever buy. Poor Peter is (benefiting?) from the collective experience of many people. And yes, we can nitpick from our armchairs. But suppose that were not the case? Shouldn't Peter or anyone else have an expectation of receiving a quality product when building a home--even if they don't personally know what makes a home a quality product?
If only we lived in a perfect world where houses were built to the same high standards as most industrial and commercial projects are. That's not to say there isn't shoddy work at the industrial and commercial level too; but those projects have higher budgets with greater contingency funds and profit margins built in. Besides industrial and commercial facilities are money making assets for their owners. Houses on the other hand are generally money pits to some degree, and don't generate income except for those people who work from home.
Ideally during construction if the tradesman has a better suggestion for building something, he will work with the designer and/or engineer to see if the suggestion meets the design intent or not. But unfortunately just as the trades bicker and gripe about each other, the various engineering disciplines do the same thing amongst themselves.
Are you saying you didn't want to do your Michelangelo impression of him painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? :laughing:
ljnelson109
Member
As I mentioned a time or two on this thread, we went through this process in 2011. In the end, I could not be happier given the parameters of our project. I would build another house with the same builder tomorrow. I would do some things differently (or have him do some things different) but we all learn from our experiences.
I would also like to be one of several who have thanked Peter for sharing his story. I would have loved to shared mine, but honestly did not know there was an audience who would have shown this much interest. I did take around 2700 pictures, but consistently learn that I did not catch certain shots that I have gone back to find. Go figure.
I was like Peter and was on site nearly every day. The builder was openly not happy about this, but not for the reasons some may think. He felt that I needed to stay away for a week or more at a time so that I could see some real progress each visit. In some ways, he may have been right. My concern, as many of stated here, was the risk that something was done wrong and then not fixed when it could be.
While I agree that some of the examples are efforts to cut corners, I am also talking about examples were either oversights occurred OR conscious decisions were made to do things in inefficient manners. One example in my house (that to this day I do not know which of those 2 cases applies) is that I ordered brushed nickel hardware on the doors. The exterior doors all came in with brushed nickel hinges. When the interior doors arrived, I immediately noticed that they had chrome hinges. My builder uses chrome in his "standard" hardware these days. So, I assumed that the supplied made an assumption and it was his oversight. Although, I believe that the exterior and interior doors came from the same supplier. In the spirit of saving work from being redone, I frantically called the builder and said, "he, just so you know, your supplier messed up....". His response was that he doesn't bother changing them on the order because it takes longer or always gets messed up with alternative hinges. He said he will change them out later. And he did. He made good on the contract, but I can't really believe that he comes out ahead changing out all of those hinges (this is a 5 bedroom house, all doors are hinged to include closet and bathroom doors).
Another point I have been meaning to pass along, in my last month of construction I started maintaining my punch out list. Every time I would go out, I would document anything I noticed that I wanted fixed before final payment. I did not share this list with the builder. What I say amazed me. As time progressed, things were getting fixed that only I thought I was seeing. I would walk through the house and find pieces of painters masking tape (blue tape) marking many of my concerns. And it was not as simple as one pass through to check paint, or another for trim. He was going through much like I was and every time he would see something different. He noticed things that I missed. And, missed a couple that I noticed. By the time we did our walk through, my list was fairly short.
Finally, like Stu, I am still getting support well beyond my 12 month warranty.
I have also been thinking about these comments regarding price per sq/ft. This is a tough one. Everyone has a different idea of what is included in that price. It definitely costs more to install a well and septic than connect to public utilities. All of the concrete flatwork that Peter is having done is definitely not part of the "included" price of most homes. The deck is a significant expense that does not contribute to square footage. Also, the small size of the home increases price per sq/ft. I considered doing Hardie on my home, I was quoted $15,000 for that upgrade (on my house that is over $3 per sq/ft of finished space).
In the end, there will be compromises. At some point, the builder will draw a line. He will argue that a given item meets code, he will warranty it, and he will not redo without some additional payment. Everyone has a break point.
Lee
I would also like to be one of several who have thanked Peter for sharing his story. I would have loved to shared mine, but honestly did not know there was an audience who would have shown this much interest. I did take around 2700 pictures, but consistently learn that I did not catch certain shots that I have gone back to find. Go figure.
I was like Peter and was on site nearly every day. The builder was openly not happy about this, but not for the reasons some may think. He felt that I needed to stay away for a week or more at a time so that I could see some real progress each visit. In some ways, he may have been right. My concern, as many of stated here, was the risk that something was done wrong and then not fixed when it could be.
While I agree that some of the examples are efforts to cut corners, I am also talking about examples were either oversights occurred OR conscious decisions were made to do things in inefficient manners. One example in my house (that to this day I do not know which of those 2 cases applies) is that I ordered brushed nickel hardware on the doors. The exterior doors all came in with brushed nickel hinges. When the interior doors arrived, I immediately noticed that they had chrome hinges. My builder uses chrome in his "standard" hardware these days. So, I assumed that the supplied made an assumption and it was his oversight. Although, I believe that the exterior and interior doors came from the same supplier. In the spirit of saving work from being redone, I frantically called the builder and said, "he, just so you know, your supplier messed up....". His response was that he doesn't bother changing them on the order because it takes longer or always gets messed up with alternative hinges. He said he will change them out later. And he did. He made good on the contract, but I can't really believe that he comes out ahead changing out all of those hinges (this is a 5 bedroom house, all doors are hinged to include closet and bathroom doors).
Another point I have been meaning to pass along, in my last month of construction I started maintaining my punch out list. Every time I would go out, I would document anything I noticed that I wanted fixed before final payment. I did not share this list with the builder. What I say amazed me. As time progressed, things were getting fixed that only I thought I was seeing. I would walk through the house and find pieces of painters masking tape (blue tape) marking many of my concerns. And it was not as simple as one pass through to check paint, or another for trim. He was going through much like I was and every time he would see something different. He noticed things that I missed. And, missed a couple that I noticed. By the time we did our walk through, my list was fairly short.
Finally, like Stu, I am still getting support well beyond my 12 month warranty.
I have also been thinking about these comments regarding price per sq/ft. This is a tough one. Everyone has a different idea of what is included in that price. It definitely costs more to install a well and septic than connect to public utilities. All of the concrete flatwork that Peter is having done is definitely not part of the "included" price of most homes. The deck is a significant expense that does not contribute to square footage. Also, the small size of the home increases price per sq/ft. I considered doing Hardie on my home, I was quoted $15,000 for that upgrade (on my house that is over $3 per sq/ft of finished space).
In the end, there will be compromises. At some point, the builder will draw a line. He will argue that a given item meets code, he will warranty it, and he will not redo without some additional payment. Everyone has a break point.
Lee
s219
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Great post Lee -- I have seen some of the same things on our project. We're in the last 3-4 weeks of construction right now.
I am beginning to put my punch list together, but like your case, the builder is already hitting some of that. The painters are doing final interior work right now, and it looks fantastic. But yesterday I went up and saw dozens of drywall touchups in each room. I didn't notice any of these defects except for a couple, so I suspect someone (builder, painter, drywall guy) must have put a spotlight sideways to the walls in every room and looked very hard for defects. I was amazed and impressed.
Our builder tends to be as picky or pickier than me, which says a lot since I am an engineer and we have a reputation for being tough customers. What is different is timescale, especially when framing was going up. I was noticing problems and reporting them to him faster than he could check on stuff, which he found amusing. He joked that he never get a chance to fix all the f'ups before I spotted them.
What I do find a bit disturbing, but seems to be standard in the industry, is the attitude "we'll fix that, no problem" when instead they could have avoided the issue all together. I made every effort to keep the builder and subs informed when I spotted a mistake, which oftentimes was due to an error or oversight on the plans/drawings. My thinking was, if they can make the correction before they do the work, that's less time/effort and more profit/efficiency for them. But most of the subs didn't seem to care so much. These guys could definitely be more efficient and get better productivity and profit from their time if they didn't spend extra cycles going back to redo stuff.
Another thing I noticed is that you can't assume these guys will do the right thing or do what the customer wants when something is confusing or open to interpretation. For instance, the engineer who signed off on our drawings mis-read the plans a bit, and penned in an i-beam to carry a 2nd floor load when in fact it was an area with a cathedral ceiling and no 2nd floor. I had pointed that out to the builder when I reviewed the plans, but it never got corrected or communicated. Well, of course the framers came in, ordered a very expensive i-beam, and framed it in where it was 1) in front of some bay windows, and 2) out in space supporting nothing. It was a running joke for a while, but it actually took them about 7 weeks before they pulled it down and dragged it out of the house, way past the time when it would've been easy. No harm done in the end, but it cost someone (not me) time and money to correct.
We also had a graphics glitch in the drawings where a toilet was drawn a little off-center in the stall area. Of course the plumber proceeded to rough in the flange and drain pipe off-center as well. When he was correcting it a few days later after I pointed out the issue, he commented that it looked wrong to him but he figured we must've had a reason for doing it. From then on in, I told every sub that if something in the drawings didn't make sense, they should trust their judgement and at least ask about it first before doing the work.
Our builder has been awesome and the whole project has been a blast (I will miss the action when we're done and moved in). But I definitely see a lot of inefficiency in this whole industry, and feel like communication is a constant struggle. Builders are busy, there are dozens of subs, and things happen on a fairly hectic schedule that can range from slow as molasses to faster than you can react. Maybe being an engineer makes me want to manage the project in the most efficient way, but the homebuilding industry really doesn't seem to operate that way (or at least not like I am used to working in the aerospace industry). What's funny is that my dad was a builder for many years when I was growing up, and I didn't notice any of this as a kid. I think the builders/subs and their families must have an entirely different perspective. I do remember my dad had some peculiar customers, but never really got any more insight than that.
Where things go bad is when you get a lax builder and/or subs, or a big "production" builder where throughput is high, workmanship is low, and things slip through the cracks. Our current house had all of the above, and by the end of the project I felt like I was the site supervisor. That was a real struggle. In the end we got a good house, but I would never go through that again unless I really was the general contractor and it was saving me a bunch of money to run the project myself.
I am beginning to put my punch list together, but like your case, the builder is already hitting some of that. The painters are doing final interior work right now, and it looks fantastic. But yesterday I went up and saw dozens of drywall touchups in each room. I didn't notice any of these defects except for a couple, so I suspect someone (builder, painter, drywall guy) must have put a spotlight sideways to the walls in every room and looked very hard for defects. I was amazed and impressed.
Our builder tends to be as picky or pickier than me, which says a lot since I am an engineer and we have a reputation for being tough customers. What is different is timescale, especially when framing was going up. I was noticing problems and reporting them to him faster than he could check on stuff, which he found amusing. He joked that he never get a chance to fix all the f'ups before I spotted them.
What I do find a bit disturbing, but seems to be standard in the industry, is the attitude "we'll fix that, no problem" when instead they could have avoided the issue all together. I made every effort to keep the builder and subs informed when I spotted a mistake, which oftentimes was due to an error or oversight on the plans/drawings. My thinking was, if they can make the correction before they do the work, that's less time/effort and more profit/efficiency for them. But most of the subs didn't seem to care so much. These guys could definitely be more efficient and get better productivity and profit from their time if they didn't spend extra cycles going back to redo stuff.
Another thing I noticed is that you can't assume these guys will do the right thing or do what the customer wants when something is confusing or open to interpretation. For instance, the engineer who signed off on our drawings mis-read the plans a bit, and penned in an i-beam to carry a 2nd floor load when in fact it was an area with a cathedral ceiling and no 2nd floor. I had pointed that out to the builder when I reviewed the plans, but it never got corrected or communicated. Well, of course the framers came in, ordered a very expensive i-beam, and framed it in where it was 1) in front of some bay windows, and 2) out in space supporting nothing. It was a running joke for a while, but it actually took them about 7 weeks before they pulled it down and dragged it out of the house, way past the time when it would've been easy. No harm done in the end, but it cost someone (not me) time and money to correct.
We also had a graphics glitch in the drawings where a toilet was drawn a little off-center in the stall area. Of course the plumber proceeded to rough in the flange and drain pipe off-center as well. When he was correcting it a few days later after I pointed out the issue, he commented that it looked wrong to him but he figured we must've had a reason for doing it. From then on in, I told every sub that if something in the drawings didn't make sense, they should trust their judgement and at least ask about it first before doing the work.
Our builder has been awesome and the whole project has been a blast (I will miss the action when we're done and moved in). But I definitely see a lot of inefficiency in this whole industry, and feel like communication is a constant struggle. Builders are busy, there are dozens of subs, and things happen on a fairly hectic schedule that can range from slow as molasses to faster than you can react. Maybe being an engineer makes me want to manage the project in the most efficient way, but the homebuilding industry really doesn't seem to operate that way (or at least not like I am used to working in the aerospace industry). What's funny is that my dad was a builder for many years when I was growing up, and I didn't notice any of this as a kid. I think the builders/subs and their families must have an entirely different perspective. I do remember my dad had some peculiar customers, but never really got any more insight than that.
Where things go bad is when you get a lax builder and/or subs, or a big "production" builder where throughput is high, workmanship is low, and things slip through the cracks. Our current house had all of the above, and by the end of the project I felt like I was the site supervisor. That was a real struggle. In the end we got a good house, but I would never go through that again unless I really was the general contractor and it was saving me a bunch of money to run the project myself.
The problems of let's wait and see and they will come back within a year and fix all the problems at once in this case are many fold.
The Contractor is not going to want to wait a year for his payment but will want Peter to pay up, in the meantime, on a promise to return. Contract wording needs checked. Peter may have no choice
w/o getting his attorney involved at more expense.
The same or same type folks will come back to mess with the mess they made in the first place. ( Remember, Peter was told that all the workers were trained to do everything) Will the problems be really corrected or just hidden better.
Peters mom, as far as we know, lives by herself at the age of 70+ years. I would certainly not want, expect, or allow my mother, at that age, to put up with these guys coming into her house for days,
moving furniture, probably opening or removing drawers, to pull the furniture across wood and tile floors leaving potentially new scratch and dig problems to get to the trim and numerous other items that they have to replace. She will be encouraged to go sit in another room or leave the premise while they are there moving her stuff and working in her closets. "No way" in my book. Once she moves in with her stuff, the only work that could remain to be done would be outside work and then Peter or his spy should be there to maintain control.
The Contractor is not going to want to wait a year for his payment but will want Peter to pay up, in the meantime, on a promise to return. Contract wording needs checked. Peter may have no choice
w/o getting his attorney involved at more expense.
The same or same type folks will come back to mess with the mess they made in the first place. ( Remember, Peter was told that all the workers were trained to do everything) Will the problems be really corrected or just hidden better.
Peters mom, as far as we know, lives by herself at the age of 70+ years. I would certainly not want, expect, or allow my mother, at that age, to put up with these guys coming into her house for days,
moving furniture, probably opening or removing drawers, to pull the furniture across wood and tile floors leaving potentially new scratch and dig problems to get to the trim and numerous other items that they have to replace. She will be encouraged to go sit in another room or leave the premise while they are there moving her stuff and working in her closets. "No way" in my book. Once she moves in with her stuff, the only work that could remain to be done would be outside work and then Peter or his spy should be there to maintain control.
OP
pclausen
Veteran Member
Excellent points everyone. Just to be clear, the builder will fix/correct 100% of what I have on my punch list before final payment. The only items they will need to address after the move in date, will be issues that are not visible right now, or that I (we? ) have not caught by the date of the final payment.
I did mention to the concrete guy this morning my concern about the concrete being poured right against the hardy plank. He gave this stare and said "that's concrete against concrete". He has never had any issues with doing it that way. The patio does slope away from the house, easily 6" over 10', which I believe is what is called for. Between that and the 2' roof overhang, I hope this won't become a problem later. I'll be sure to keen an eye on it.
) have not caught by the date of the final payment.I did mention to the concrete guy this morning my concern about the concrete being poured right against the hardy plank. He gave this stare and said "that's concrete against concrete". He has never had any issues with doing it that way. The patio does slope away from the house, easily 6" over 10', which I believe is what is called for. Between that and the 2' roof overhang, I hope this won't become a problem later. I'll be sure to keen an eye on it.
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MacLawn
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I did a patio about 5 years ago using that stamped method - it is great! Mine is about 12'x10'. A slight slope away from the block foundation of my house, nary a problem. Also, in 1998, my neighbor built a house with Hardie lap siding, I took a scrap, buried it a bit, it is still good!! I like that stuff! Now, I would want to follow Hardie recommendation, but I guess they have to be extra careful in their guarantee. Looking good, pc.
I interpret that MacLawn is saying to you and everybody reading this thread that your Hardie board will last at least 14 years in that location.
See if your contractor will match that guarantee?
Problems With James Hardie Siding Installations | Structure Tech Home Inspections
See below installation instructions with text and simple drawings.
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/hardietrim-nt3-hz5.pdf
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/hardieplank-hz5.pdf
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/hardiepanel-hz5.pdf
See if your contractor will match that guarantee?
Problems With James Hardie Siding Installations | Structure Tech Home Inspections
See below installation instructions with text and simple drawings.
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/hardietrim-nt3-hz5.pdf
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/hardieplank-hz5.pdf
http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/install/hardiepanel-hz5.pdf
Obed
Elite Member
Actually, these 90 degree elbows are the "large radius" type. I have had no clogging issues even though our house is in the middle of the woods. The Y cleanout is just a precaution. All it takes is for a squirrel or rat to get stuck and die inside the pipe to cause a big headache if a cleanout is not easily accessible.
Obed