need some help from any electricians!!!!

[Woody65]

Hi, I am attempting to have service brought onto my property and NYSEG has changed all the rules in the last 2 years. Instead of a pleasant phone call, appointment and a field visit from an experienced surveyor, I now have to give them my ss#, $300 deposit and fill out all kinds of forms just to get a visit to the property for a survey regarding a service installation. well enough of that, this is what I need help with. They want a total connected load KVA and KV and an expected peak demand KVA and KV. Can one of you give me a ballpark to put on the request form. It's all chinese to me. I will have about 10 lights in a barn and a travel trailer to start. A 1500 sq ft cabin will be added later. I just need ballpark numbers to put on the form to get the field surveyor out to my property. I dont want to put down something ridiculous that gets questioned right off the bat. Thanks in advance...

 

[SPYDERLK]

KVA is essentially the same as KW. -- Dont know what they mean by KV. -- You should get enough for foreseeable future needs. I would want 200Amp service unless you are sure youll stay small and frugal. 200A at 240V= 48KVA. That would be peak demand. Your actual demand now is much less with lights and trailer. -- Maybe as much as 10KVA if you have a well and heat pump for water and comfort.

 

[Woody65]

KVA is essentially the same as KW. -- Dont know what they mean by KV. -- You should get enough for foreseeable future needs. I would want 200Amp service unless you are sure youll stay small and frugal. 200A at 240V= 48KVA. That would be peak demand. Your actual demand now is much less with lights and trailer. -- Maybe as much as 10KVA if you have a well and heat pump for water and comfort.

Thanks for the reply spyderlk. I am planning a 200 amp service but they want this stupid form filled out to just get a visit. I got ya on the peak load but what do they mean by total connected load?

Sorry KV was a typo. It's KVA and KW not KV.

 

[chim]

KW = Kilowatts, KVA = Kilovolt Amperes. KW is real power and KVA is real power plus losses. Another term they might toss around is Power Factor. That's the ratio of KW to KVA.

A baseboard heater that draws 10 amps at 240 volts is 10 x 240 = 2,400 Watts or 2.4 Kilowatts. Generally loads that involve coils (motors etc) may draw say 11 Amps to do 10 Amps worth of work, due to losses. This motor would be a load of 2.64 KVA and do 2.4 KW worth of actual work.

Transformers are rated in KVA because they need to size them to cover the losses. To oversimplify a bit, if the transformer would have a tag that said 2.4 KW and this motor was connected to it (2.4 KW but 2.64 KVA) the transformer would be overloaded.

 

[CobyRupert]

Yep, they don't make it easy anymore. Use to be 1 phone call and you'd be good to go. The field guys are still good, but getting them to your property is the headache.

So about that Chinese:
A Volt is just a unit of charge (potential). Think of it like pressure, (like air pressure, or water behind a dam, unless it's flowing (current) no energy is being used (or made).
An Amp (ampere) is just a measure of how much current is flowing. (instead of saying 6,241,000,000,000,000,000 electrons per second are flowing, it's just easier to say 1 amp). Think of it like "gallons per minute"

Here's the kicker:
The energy you can get from a circuit where the charge is 1 Volt, and the current is flowing at 1 amp is: 1 Volt x 1 Amp = 1 "Volt-Amp" (or 1 VA).
Remember that "k" is an abbreviation for kilo (or 1000 in the metric system), so 1 KVA = 1000 Volt-amps.
Example: A 240V service that is drawing 100 amps is using: 240V x 100amps= 24,000 volt-amps, or 24kVA.


I don't think they are asking you for "KV" (kilovolts), but probably "KW" (kilowatts).

Here's where it gets a little messy, skip this part if you want:
KW = KVA x P.F. (power factor). Basically the power factor is the percentage (0-100%) of the KVA that does the real work.
<- That's the short version. Think of this energy measurement like a glass of beer, you might have a 100 KVA glass of beer, but if 20% is foam, the power factor is PF= .8 (80%), and you only have 80 KW of "real beer" that you can drink. (So at the end of the night did you really have a 5 beers or 4 beers if you discount the foam?) Basically, loads with windings (motors, coils, etc.. have a bad (low)power factor, and heat generating loads (heaters, ovens, resistors, incandescent lights) have a power factor of near 100%.
But don't worry about power factor, it's not a big deal for all it's complications.

Let's just say (for now), that 1 KVA = 1 KW

Basically, look up, estimate, or calculate the KVA (or KW) of everything that will be connected or plugged in.
(Use 180 VA, or .18 kVA for receptacle outlets where final load unknown)
This total is your "connected KVA". Say ("estimate") your "connected KW" is 80% of this total.

Estimate how much of those loads will ever run at the same time (i.e. your A/C probably ain't going to run as your heat) 50% is probably a good number: This is your "Peak demand KVA". Say "peak KW" is 80% of "peak KVA".

There's other ways to do this (estimate loads by square footage), but hope this gets you started.

 

[Woody65]

Thanks for all the info guys. I am going to come up with some numbers to put on the sheet and send it in. All of this is an exhibition of wasted time because in the end I will be installing a 200amp primary residential single phase service 1200 ft from the pole to a transformer and then the secondary service to the meter and panel. I was going to do the work myself but have since decided that I will dig the trench and transformer pad. I have an appointment with a local electrician to look at the job and quote me an estimate to install the shedule40, primary wire to the transformer and secondary hookups at the meter and panel. I just need a field guy to come out and approve the pole that I will be taking the juice from, and the transformer and meter location. I will be responsible for the underground service since the elec co won't install it. They only install above ground. They quoted me 2 years ago $17,000 to bring it in 1200'.

Again, thanks for the info. I fudged up some numbers and sent it in.

 

[CCWKen]

Don't install wire until you know what the ultimate load will be or you may be pulling new wire when the cabin goes in. You need to sit down and list all the appliances and equipment that may be used and the ones that may be used at the same time. Such as washer, dryer, electric range, air conditioning, heating, refrigerator, freezer, toaster, microwave, TVs, computers, lighting, etc. Don't forget barn/shop tools (compressors and welders are big draws) and lighting. I live in an all electric home and they put in a 25KW transformer for my 200A service to the house and 100A service to the barn/shop. You don't want to be working in the barn and dim the lights in the house. Low voltage is an appliance killer.

If you're putting in 200A service, it sounds like this may be a bit more than just a "cabin".

Oh, I forgot the electric water heater. Another big draw.

 

[Stimw]

Those people have all forgotten that they work FOR US but some how they have turned that around.
The phrase that goes around- Make Welfare as hard to get as a building permit!

 

[Woody65]

Don't install wire until you know what the ultimate load will be or you may be pulling new wire when the cabin goes in. You need to sit down and list all the appliances and equipment that may be used and the ones that may be used at the same time. Such as washer, dryer, electric range, air conditioning, heating, refrigerator, freezer, toaster, microwave, TVs, computers, lighting, etc. Don't forget barn/shop tools (compressors and welders are big draws) and lighting. I live in an all electric home and they put in a 25KW transformer for my 200A service to the house and 100A service to the barn/shop. You don't want to be working in the barn and dim the lights in the house. Low voltage is an appliance killer. If you're putting in 200A service, it sounds like this may be a bit more than just a "cabin".

Thanks for the response.

This will be a standard 1800 sq ft residential single family home. The usual appliances and lighting. This will be 3-5 years from now. The barn will only need power for shop tools. I currently have a 200 amp service in the home I live in now and it is plenty for my uses.

When I inquired and had a field man come out 2 years ago he was very helpful. He sent me all the specs on the wire needed and the proper installation of the conduit ( depth of trench, type of pipe, size and type of wire for either conduit or direct bury install etc...). I want to verify all this and make sure nothing has changed along with get a site plan for the transformer, meter and which pole to use ( I have 3 available to get the juice from).

I am building the barn first so the service will be run to it. Then when the house is built, I will either have to run a line to the house or change the primary to run to the house first. Don't know which of those options will be better.

 

[ultrarunner]

Are you going all electric or will you also have propane/natural gas?

The reason I ask is once space/water heating and clothes drying is gas it makes a big difference.

Folks have a 2400 square foot home built in 1959 and year in and year out they use 12 kWh per day... summer and winter... they heat water and space with natural gas.