Wiring to shed from house question

[Zebrafive]

Why do you need 200 amps at your barn?

Have you calculated what your power needs will be at the barn? AC? Water heater? welder? Air compressor? outlets?

In most cases, you will only be using one outlet at a time, plus lights. 100 amps is more then enough for a shop.

If you are pulling power from your main supply at your house, how much is your house using at the same time you will be in the shop? Will the AC be on in the house, the water heater? Maybe a dryer doing laundry or an oven cooking dinner?

I wondered the same thing, the need for 200A.
Where I am at a separate meter will cost about $50/month, before using any electric, better to come off the house for me.
At the time I did mine, it was more expensive for direct burial wire, than non burial AND conduit. Price it both ways.

 

[LD1]

100A is indeed sufficient for most shops, but the cost of a 200a panel and 200A wire is a small upcharge if future uses are not known.

I went 200A at my personal shop doe several reasons.

HVAC is one.

If all the lights are on....(10 6 bulb t8's and 6 4-bulb t-8's + a 175w dusk to dawn) thats about 30 amp right there.
(2) 200+amp welders
220v air compressor

15hp phase converter running a 3hp mill and a 7.5hp lathe

200a panel and 120' of wire to feed the shop cost me ~$350. 100a panel and 120' of 100a wire would have cost me ~$200. Not much savings for making sure I have the power I need

 

[buickanddeere]

One meter base and run four conductors underground from the existing meter to the barn. Float the neutral bar from the ground at the barn. Or livestock will receive tingle voltage shocks . Drive at least two ground rods or better yet two very deeply buried ground plates at the barn and tie to both the ground coming from the meter and to the barn panel ground bar.
When tinkering around and everything is opened up, this is the time for a low cost generator transfer switch upgrade . Will also alllow isolating power from barn and placing a couple of u-ground receptacles and/or a yard light near the meter .


TWB212DR Panel/Link - Reliance Controls Corporation

 

[RNeumann]

OK, I have two choices... what I need is 200 amps in my barn....

What I have is my house meter, 250ft from the shed.

I also have a transformer 190 ft from the shed.

If I go from the transformer I will need a meter (and extra costs for that).

If I want 200 amps from my house meter, what guage do I need to run? I am thinkin 1/0 AL

Oh,this will be buried so any thoughts on putting it in schedule 80 conduit?

Just verifying your house has a 400a panel? You can’t just add a 200a breaker to your existing residential 200a panel. Nor can you add a 200a breaker to a 400a residential panel that is using both of the 200a breakers already. Wire size is the easiest part of this job- their are plenty of nec charts. Just remember if you use your existing meter/panel you can’t use the “service entrance cable” charts.
You don’t need sch80 pvc below grade. Sch40 is fine- don’t waste your money or your back.
Again, assuming you use your existing meter, you will need to pull 4 wires to the shop. The ground and neutral need to be separate at/to the sub panel.
Conduit will prob need to be 2” or so depending on the wire.

As others have mentioned, 200a is probably way more than you need. I’m guessing you will need a new main/service entrance panel, very large wires and conduit and an oversized sub panel- all to power a nice welder, air compressor, heater and a few other shop tools. That’s overkill.
It can be done but brace yourself- the wire size and conduit selection is about 1/10,000th of that job.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Thanks everyone.

Our situation is complicated, of course. We live in a Manufactured for the moment and will be building in a couple of years a new house in a different location (40 acre lot). For Manufactured in WA code says you ahve to have a seperate breaker panel outside, which we do. So power comes to a seperate breaker box with a meter... this will need to be changed if I want to run power from that meter (which I do due to seperate meter costs). I think it feeds the house at 100 AMPS. The new shop is looking to be a 50x50 :-( and I don't know its future. It will have hot water, washer and dryer for dirty clothes, and it will have wood working and welding gear. Only one or maybe two thing will run at once, but I figured a 200 AMP would allow some sort of an upgrade / better gear in the future.

I will be using an electrician, at least for this big stuff, but wanted some insight so I know when I am being lied to as I am not familiar with running mains.

 

[RNeumann]

If that’s the case you will want to start with something like this-
Siemens MC816B14RLTM 4 Amp 8 Space 16 Circuit Levery Bypass Meter-Load Center Combination Main Breaker with Feed Thru Lugs and Ringless Cover - - Amazon.com

I installed one of these not long ago. For the price it will be hard to beat. Copper bus bars etc. The install was similar to yours with a house and shop separated. It has a 200a breaker to feed your shop and a second 200a space that would do your current and future house. Plus it has a few extra slots if you wanted to add anything in the yard- gate, plug, lights etc. Some of the other similar panels cost $1500-$2000!! This is a bargain.

Btw you will need to verify the service to your meter. If it’s only 100 or 200a the utility will need to upgrade that as well.

It can all be done- just keep throwing money at it!

 

[plowhog]

I am building a 60x60 garage/shop in the rear of the property. To accommodate that, I am upgrading a 200a panel at the residence to 400a. Work underway now.

I designed for a 200a subpanel at the shop. Multiple electricians told me that is overkill. Plus it would require larger, more expensive wire. So I sized it at 100a instead. And an exterior disconnect is required. To receive 400a service at the residence, I needed a) the proper transformer at the street, b) a permit/plan from the utility, c) new 3" conduit from the nearest electric box to my panel. The 3" conduit must be 5' deep in my area for main service, plus marked above with tape and a marking wire/tape.

My neighbor upgraded a few years ago, and paid about $10k to upgrade the transformer at the street to be able to supply 400a power. Good for me, it is now upsized so I can do the same. The utility charged me about $1,100 for the plan, and they will supply the wire. I have to do everything else. For a 400a panel, stuffed full of all new breakers, plus removal of the old panel, hookup of the new panel, and a new ground is about $4,500 from a licensed electrician. I got several bids and his wasn't cheapest but he does very good work. Plus my permit fees to the County. That's not including the excavation but I already had that underway. Aluminum wire to the shop building (about 250') nor any wiring in the shop building is included. I am waiting on a bid for all of that.

So, moving up to 400a can be an expensive proposition.

 

[spokane 1]

I just wired a 200 amp service in clark county....if you have a manufactured your fine to drop from the meter into a milbank box or if you already have the 200amp main breaker box with empty lugs outside the home you can just drop in another 200amp breaker on the box plumb out and cut a nice deep trench to your shop....you will need minimum 2 1/2 inch schedule 80 and 2 sweeps where it comes from the ground to the boxes.
home depot has 4-4-2 direct burial underground. your line loss is very minimal in 250 ft. not even a bother its like 4 volt loss.

your home 200 amp service is quite capable of handling 200 amp to a house and 200 amp to the shop.
i dont think the Wa Dept of Labor permit guy will give you any problem.
there is nothing in your home or shop that can draw 200amps continuous and all lines are capable of hauling double the load or 400 amps when tasked.

 

[Erik M]

I am building a 60x60 garage/shop in the rear of the property. To accommodate that, I am upgrading a 200a panel at the residence to 400a. Work underway now.

I designed for a 200a subpanel at the shop. Multiple electricians told me that is overkill. Plus it would require larger, more expensive wire. So I sized it at 100a instead. And an exterior disconnect is required. To receive 400a service at the residence, I needed a) the proper transformer at the street, b) a permit/plan from the utility, c) new 3" conduit from the nearest electric box to my panel. The 3" conduit must be 5' deep in my area for main service, plus marked above with tape and a marking wire/tape.

My neighbor upgraded a few years ago, and paid about $10k to upgrade the transformer at the street to be able to supply 400a power. Good for me, it is now upsized so I can do the same. The utility charged me about $1,100 for the plan, and they will supply the wire. I have to do everything else. For a 400a panel, stuffed full of all new breakers, plus removal of the old panel, hookup of the new panel, and a new ground is about $4,500 from a licensed electrician. I got several bids and his wasn't cheapest but he does very good work. Plus my permit fees to the County. That's not including the excavation but I already had that underway. Aluminum wire to the shop building (about 250') nor any wiring in the shop building is included. I am waiting on a bid for all of that.

So, moving up to 400a can be an expensive proposition.

Yes, it sure is not cheap, but 100A does not go very far in a large shop that might need AC as well as lights and power for all manner of machines. My 15 hp phase converter alone draws 105 FLA and she grunts hard when starting the 25” planer but does start it. Each to their own, but out of curiosity, what did you save by dropping from 200 to 100A in the shop, were you able to relocate your household 200A panel to the shop?

When I upgraded a house from 100 to 200A I pushed the old 100A panel to the basement as a sub panel was able to wire the shop up with a lot less wire and recycled all those existing breakers.

 

[ultrarunner]

"better" to run off xfmr is relative.

Its better if you want a separate bill for some reason. Commercial? Tax purposes? Too far from house (voltage drop), etc.

I ran a separate 200a to my garage because coming off the house meter would have been about 400'.....and right through an area where I have future plans at doing alot of digging. New run from a different xfmr was a 100' run.....and its commercial an the bill needs to be separate for tax reasons.

In your case of 190' vs 250'......I'd go for the house tie-in.

I use about 1600kwh per month average at the house. And the total bill averages ~0.12/kwh....so my house bill is usually around $190.

Use far less at the garage. Maybe 300kwh/month. Prices average 0.22/kwh...or about $65/month.

So having two meters I am paying the electric co $255/month. If I had a single meter....since the more you use the cheaper it gets.....I'd be more like 0.11 for the whole usage......or about $210/month.

So using two meters will continue to cost you more every month.

4/0 aluminum us standard for 200A service......but at what distance that needs upsized I dont remember off the top of my head.

Due to tiered pricing the more you use the more it costs per kW... in my part of California.

In WA I have UF for a 400 amp service laid in 1977... the utility has made 3 repairs in 9 years and saying I will need to put in conduit... so not sure what the plan will be next time.