food plots for deer

[Bird]

You're a trophy hunter and I was never anything but a meat hunter. That's the reason I don't hunt anymore. I can buy the meat cheaper. Now I'm no biologist or animal expert of any kind, and I could certainly be wrong, but I can't help but think humans, especially trophy hunters, are the cause of many of the problems we have with wildlife. In nature, other animals, as well as early humans, hunted for meat, so yep, they took, and some still take, the very old, the very young, the sick, and the crippled; i.e., culled the herd and left behind the best breeding stock. But trophy hunters want to kill only the best breeding stock, to leave the "inferior?" animals for breeding. Just a theory; maybe right, maybe wrong, but I wonder if that isn't one of the reasons we have such small whitetail deer in much of Texas.

 

[EddieWalker]

Bird,

You bring up some very common held beliefs. On the face of it, the reasoning seams valid, even logical. When I first started hunting, I also felt that trophy hunters were a bad thing and that if hunters killed all the big bucks, than only the small ones would be left for breeding. I'll never forget a park ranger explaining that very thing to me when I was a boy scout.

It was many years and allot of hunting under my belt until I realized the oposite is the truth. Kind of like accusing the loggers of ruining the forest for cutting down the trees. If they cut down all the trees, there wont be any left.

I don't have the numbers for all the states, but can give you general numbers for the Rocky Mtn areas.

Hunter success on tags sold runs on average close to 20 percent. Biologist factor success ratio's into the amount of tags made available in a given zone. If they sell 100 tags for the zone, they expect to harvest 20 animals as a example.

Nature is also factored into this equation with winter kill playing a huge part in the deer herd and overall health. Carrying numbers per acreage based of feed available. It's very similar to raising livestock.

Now to your point of hunters killing all the trophy bucks leaving nothing to reproduce.

Of that 20 percent success ration, only 1 to 3 percent will be trophy quality. Of course, the trophy is in the eye of the beholder and I'm using SCI standards. Boone and Crockett is an even lower percentage. Something along the line of .01 percent.

More trophy class deer are killed by Mt. Lions and winter kill than hunters. I've heard the ratio from 3 times as many to as much as ten times.

Winter kill and predators account for the mortality of more deer in the herd due to their solitary nature and their weekend state going into winter due to the rut.

Biologist expect this to happen every winter. The benifits to the overall herd to lowering their numbers becomes obvious when you have entire herds starving to death over the winter. Too many animals and not enough winter range.

This happend in Yellowstone to the elk in the mid 80's. Biologist and natralist were both trying to allow hunting in the park to lower the numbers because of the massive die offs from starvation.

Wyoming, Idaho and Utah were also hit in the early 90's from a heavy winter with too many animals. In some ranges they had 90 percent mortality.

Not sure were you got your information about Texas having smaller deer. Texas has held the record for yearly entries into the Boone and Crocket record book for many years now. The big difference between Boone and Crockette as opossed to the other record books is they wont' allow an animal to be entered into their book that has been shot behind a high fence.

One of the most extreme examples of a trophy hunter is a movie producer who spent $303,000 on an auctioned bighorn sheep tag in Alberta Canada. The tag allowed him to hunt any open zone in the provence. He chose to hunt along the borders of Banf. Almost everyday he and his guides could see what would have been the new world recond bighorn ram. The ram never crossed the line outside of the park. After two months, the season ended and he went home empty handed.

That money he paid for that tag went directly to managing the herd. He also hired several people during this adventure. He tried to get the tag again the following year, but was outbid!!!

This happens in all the western states for all species found there. Texas has these hunts too.

My last point is that the record books are being broke all the time. More and more trophies are being taken every year, forcing Boone and Crocket to raise their minimums 5 points. If the genetics were being depleted, than trophy quality would be declining, not increasing.

Eddie

 

[BB_TX]

<font color="blue"> Not sure were you got your information about Texas having smaller deer. </font>
I assume Bird is speaking of body size, not antler size. TX always produces trophy antlers, but I am guessing the average body weight of a Texas deer is considerably less than most states. I know there are some very large deer come out of east and north Tx. But the deer in the densely populated hill country are very small. You know they are small when you can shoot an 8 pt (eastern count) buck, field dress it, and then one man can easily lift it onto the rack of an ATV.

 

[Bird]

The theory that the best breeding stock is being killed off seems to make a lot of sense to me, Eddie, but what you say also sounds logical. And of course I don't really know a lot of "facts" on the topic. Bill is right about my referring to body size of Texas deer. I understand (or have heard) the East Texas whitetails are larger, but the largest quantity of deer I've seen was in the hill country and they seemed pretty small. Forty-three years ago, I killed bambi on a ranch at Llano; very tasty meat but not much of it. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I haven't shot a deer since; have no desire to kill anything, but I am a meat eater and I'd do it in a minute if I could get my meat cheaper that way. But I have no use for any "trophies"; can't eat'em and don't need any decorations. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Darren]

Eddie, due to the DNR's mismanagement I can jump a deer or several anytime I'm in the woods. I've never hunted from a stand. A lot of so-called hunters are really waiters. They wait until a deer goes by their location.

The vast majority of deer I've taken were does. Last year I took five on a damage permit and it wasn't difficult.

 

[BB_TX]

This is starting to drift a little off the original subject, but what the heck. After nearly 40 yrs of deer hunting, I have noticed that doe are more skittish and alert to their surroundings than bucks. Bucks may be smarter overall at avoiding humans, but when they do happen nearby, they are less likely to be alarmed and blow and/or stomp than a doe. We hunt in open natural blinds so we are somewhat visible. Doe nearby will often notice something doesn't look quite right. The slightest movement will cause her to blow or send her running. A buck will likely walk on by without even noticing. Just my observation. Hunting in the overpopulated TX hill country, it is not unusual to see 10 to 15 deer any time you go into the woods.

 

[redharley]

Hi Flintlock, I'm from Pa. also around Sunbury.You did not mention whether your planting in the mountains or open farm area or maybe both.It will make a difference.If your up north far enough in pa about the only thing farmer's plant are hay.If your a little further south anything is possible.If your in the mountains I mean no farm land for several mile's just about any thing that is easy to plant and germanate in your location is a good choice.Talk to the local feed store, people I know stay away from the for deer only stuff.I maen look at a soy bean or corn feild not cut in the fall deer love it.There are many grass mixture's that grow well. You don't need a lot of fancy eqipment, a disc,seeder of some sort, culipacker.will do.Your atv may be enough for now or maybe a sub compact tractor with more attachments.Keep in mind your food plots do not have to look like farm feilds to work.Have fun with it , Red

 

[3RRL]

Eddy,
Thank you for posting an outstanding representation of what not only trophy hunters contribute to wildlife, but what all hunters do for wildlife by participating in their deer season.

I have been backed up in a corner too many times trying to explain the benefits of the fees hunters pay and where the funding for wild life refuges, reserves, wetlands..etc.etc comes from. In additon to winters and lions being responsible for the death of trophy animals, there are injuries these guys deal with sufferred during the rut, and illness and disease that takes their lives.

As you suggested, these "natural elements" are responsible for more than 90% of the death rate of our deer herds, with hunters and automobile related deaths being less than 10%. The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has some excellent articles derived from studies that explain this.
Thank you,

 

[MMM]

I favor chickory or chickory/clover mix, with high seeding rate and heavy fert rate to crowd out weeds. I only replant every 4-5 years unlike annual pea, grass, turnip type crops.
Personally, I think trophy hunting is bad for deer population unless does and basket racked bucks are taken also. I agree that you can't kill all the trophy bucks though, because many never move during daylight. With the lengthy season here, I don't shoot does during 1st rut, to keep them in plots for natural buk lures. After 1st rut, they're fair game.

 

[HGM]

Got a question about that.....

It has been my practice to shoot my does early. By the rut, I have plenty of meat in the freezer. Less does durring the rut means more competition, better genes being passed on and more action for me.

Durring the rut, I look for horns, hopefully big ones. If there is a scrub buck, I'll take him to get those genes out of the pool, they eat just the same.

After the rut, I'm leary of taking does because they could be carying the next Boone & Crocket.

In my area, the 1st rut is right about Thanksgiving. The surrounding counties usually come in shortly after that. I hunt them too. The second rut comes in near mid December, so basicly I plan Thanksgiving through Jan 1 to be buck only.

I'm open to anyones thoughts here. It's always made sense to me, though I may be corrected..