Dusty
Veteran Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2000
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- Tractor
- bx22
I was wondering where my outlet went. Now I know Sparkkky stole it!!
Electrical PVC verse Regular PVC
- Thread starter GaryBDavis
- Start date
Eddie, there are right ways to do electrical wiring spelled out by the N.E.C. granted you won't burn your house down with wiring in the ground but you could still electrocute someone. Your reference to what you could afford does not apply as in most cases it cost no more to do it right than it does to cobble something together.
Fine if you want to do it yourself, but you should at least go to the trouble to do things right(safe) even if you have to take a class or buy a book and study it!
Improper wiring will burn down your buildings and kill people!
BTW I am a working electrical contractor.
The heating blanket control in the one Pic. was to dim the O/S light on front of the garage and this was passed by the general home inspector.
Fine if you want to do it yourself, but you should at least go to the trouble to do things right(safe) even if you have to take a class or buy a book and study it!
Improper wiring will burn down your buildings and kill people!
BTW I am a working electrical contractor.
The heating blanket control in the one Pic. was to dim the O/S light on front of the garage and this was passed by the general home inspector.
Attachments
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
sparkkky said:
I agree with you 100%.
I'm not sure what your pictures have to do with your earlier reply to my suggestion of using direct burial wire and sleeving it in thinwall pipe, but they are good pictures of some really bad wiring. I've seen plenty of homes with wireing allot worse than that, but usually don't get called in for those jobs. I'm there because the toilet has finally rotted through the floor and they want it fixed for $40. hahahaha People like that won't pay for anything to be fixed right, so I just tell them that they are in danger and they need to fix it. Of course, I don't take on those jobs that won't do it to what I consider a minimum level of saftey, so I don't know what ever happens to them.
Christmas time seems to be house burning down season here. We are having them burn to the ground just about every day right now. It's obvious that somebody did some "Southern Engineering" on there electrical, but people who do these things wont' fix them. If it's working today, than it's not a problem.
It's just sad,
Eddie
Eddie, besides water pipe being illegal for electric even if its sch40 you can not add or replace wires if they go bad.(fail to see how this saves money)
Wiring in a pipe has a total number and size of wires depending on conditions that can go in each size of pipe so that the wire will not overheat. Spraying insulating foam in the pipe is a bad idea and may lead to premuture failing of said wire costing much more for a total redo with ditching.(not saving money)
Why is water in the pipe a issue when you used Direct Bury wire?
Wiring in a pipe has a total number and size of wires depending on conditions that can go in each size of pipe so that the wire will not overheat. Spraying insulating foam in the pipe is a bad idea and may lead to premuture failing of said wire costing much more for a total redo with ditching.(not saving money)
Why is water in the pipe a issue when you used Direct Bury wire?
gemini5362
Veteran Member
I dont see what eddie says being a problem with code or otherwise. He said that he is useing direct buried wire which means you dont need to put anything around it. He puts pvc around it for some extra protection which is by the code. The code is minimum standards you can always do more.
Nice idea about useing gray and white pvc so you can tell which is which. I dont allow anyone but me to work on my plumbing or electrical. ( that is because they would want me to pay them ) I think the next time I use white pvc underground as conduit I am going to buy a 2.00 can of grey spray paint
Nice idea about useing gray and white pvc so you can tell which is which. I dont allow anyone but me to work on my plumbing or electrical. ( that is because they would want me to pay them ) I think the next time I use white pvc underground as conduit I am going to buy a 2.00 can of grey spray paint
Just read your last post and I have found that most owners of new to them homes do want things cleaned up, and the people that did the work in the first place do not care.
We do things to code or don't do them at all have left more than one job!
Reason I posted the pics was to show improper methods just like your wiring is improper.
Just call as I see them, the truth makes me unpopular but at least I can sleep at night!
There are enough people on this board that know the proper way to do this and they should be the one's giving advice!
We do things to code or don't do them at all have left more than one job!
Reason I posted the pics was to show improper methods just like your wiring is improper.
Just call as I see them, the truth makes me unpopular but at least I can sleep at night!
There are enough people on this board that know the proper way to do this and they should be the one's giving advice!
gemini5362 said:
Wrong, Direct Bury does not require pipe. And you just don't get it! Please don't call a electrican as your wiring may give him a heart attack!
Someday a few of you will be sorry, if its burning down your house or killing someone you love, hey but you saved money!
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Sparkkky,
Thank you for the reply.
Putting wire in thinwall may be a code violation, but it's not illegal here. It's also not a code violation where there is no code.
I use it because it's dirt cheap and it protects the wire from rodents. My biggest concern is that gophers will chew through it, which is a very common problem here. I don't have rocks, just clay, so if it wasn't for them, I would just bury it and be done with it. I'm even thinking that if I go deep enough, I might be safe from gophers, but that's taking a risk I want to avoid.
My problem with water in pipe with direct bury wire is that the water is there forever. In the ground, it dries out, or if deep enough, rarely gets wet. Constant imersion in water may cause it to fail in time. I could be wrong the wire failing, but I've heard it happens, so I thought the expanding foam was good insurance.
I'm aware of heat issues with high voltage lines, but never heard of 12/2 with 15 or 20 amps ever having heating issues. Is this true?
As for adding or replacing wires in pipe, your right. My method doesn't allow for this. It's strictly use it until it fails and then redo the entire line. New trench, new wire and new pipe. If it fails, it can be pricey.
I'm gambleing that it wont fail. I'm also perfectly willing to redo it if it does. Hopefully those who read my posts realize that my suggestions may be unorthodoxed with certain drawbacks. But I wouldn't offer my opinion if I didn't think it was a viable option.
I also wouldn't do this for a client. I will do it on my own place, but when somebody pays me to do a job, than I have to cover my butt. It's cheaper and more profitable for me to walk away from almost all electrical jobs. It's not that I can't do most residential work, it's that the liablity factor is just too big. If there is a fire, than I have to prove that it wasn't my fault. Too much effort, time and expense involved in that. I know a guy who did that and it cost him tens of thousands of dollars to prove it wasn't his fault.
Take care,
Eddie
Thank you for the reply.
Putting wire in thinwall may be a code violation, but it's not illegal here. It's also not a code violation where there is no code.
I use it because it's dirt cheap and it protects the wire from rodents. My biggest concern is that gophers will chew through it, which is a very common problem here. I don't have rocks, just clay, so if it wasn't for them, I would just bury it and be done with it. I'm even thinking that if I go deep enough, I might be safe from gophers, but that's taking a risk I want to avoid.
My problem with water in pipe with direct bury wire is that the water is there forever. In the ground, it dries out, or if deep enough, rarely gets wet. Constant imersion in water may cause it to fail in time. I could be wrong the wire failing, but I've heard it happens, so I thought the expanding foam was good insurance.
I'm aware of heat issues with high voltage lines, but never heard of 12/2 with 15 or 20 amps ever having heating issues. Is this true?
As for adding or replacing wires in pipe, your right. My method doesn't allow for this. It's strictly use it until it fails and then redo the entire line. New trench, new wire and new pipe. If it fails, it can be pricey.
I'm gambleing that it wont fail. I'm also perfectly willing to redo it if it does. Hopefully those who read my posts realize that my suggestions may be unorthodoxed with certain drawbacks. But I wouldn't offer my opinion if I didn't think it was a viable option.
I also wouldn't do this for a client. I will do it on my own place, but when somebody pays me to do a job, than I have to cover my butt. It's cheaper and more profitable for me to walk away from almost all electrical jobs. It's not that I can't do most residential work, it's that the liablity factor is just too big. If there is a fire, than I have to prove that it wasn't my fault. Too much effort, time and expense involved in that. I know a guy who did that and it cost him tens of thousands of dollars to prove it wasn't his fault.
Take care,
Eddie
MarEng
Silver Member
My $0.02.
Buried over 3000' of water and power service for our place. Used white Sched 40 for all of the water and all of the buried electrical. Used gray for anything exposed to sun. Also used the proper gray (long radius, etc.) fittings for the electrical (no matter where it was located) to make pulling easy. At the time we were buying it, white was 1/2 the cost of gray. Every line was color coded, including the electrical (which was painted gray to match the fittings.) This was done to avoid cutting into electrical, thinking it was water, though the electrical is buried 12" below the water to comply with NEC. Having had a water spigot run over that required opening the trench - the color coding is as visible as the day it was applied.
While the attached pictures are scary - the only time I've seen stuff like that was when I had to hire a licensed electrician. I used to live in the City of Houston and needed a house rewired quickly and a certificate for the insurance company (knob and tube had to go). While I am a PE licensed to design electrical circuits/equipment in the State of Texas, I am unable to pull a permit in the CoH. I am also prohibited from taking the test to get an electrician's license because I don't have eight years as a journeyman. But I digress, the licensed electrician made flying splices in the attic, left entire rooms without power because he coudn't figure out his own schematic/approach to rewiring, left open junction boxes, failed to terminate the service correctly, etc. The real winner was finding the outlet in the kitchen didn't work because it was cross wired to two different circuits. What makes this worse is that the entire job was inspected by the CoH inspector and appproved - I doubt he even slowed down when he drove by. I spent two days finishing the job while the man with the license sat there and told me stories about how hard it was to pass the license exam. Oh, and he didn't staple or secure a thing. The only thing holding wires together were the nuts in the junction boxes, no wire clamps, no staples, no conduit, nada. Oh, and he didn't even tape the nuts, despite the level of mechanical support he was expecting them to supply.
A long winded story to say that Code/NEC/whatever won't protect from incompetence and corruption whether licensed or not and that if you understand why NEC/Code require what they do, calculated risks like using white versus gray shouldn't be an emotional issue. You may also understand why it is I grumble when I get passed by a truck bearing a union bumper sticker admonishing me that, "Electricity isn't a Hobby". What a joke. I found it wonderfully refreshing when the County Engineer's office, in response to a question about which model building code they use, responded with, "None. It's your house, if you don't want to use any nails, that's your choice." A little freedom still exists in the land of the free.
Buried over 3000' of water and power service for our place. Used white Sched 40 for all of the water and all of the buried electrical. Used gray for anything exposed to sun. Also used the proper gray (long radius, etc.) fittings for the electrical (no matter where it was located) to make pulling easy. At the time we were buying it, white was 1/2 the cost of gray. Every line was color coded, including the electrical (which was painted gray to match the fittings.) This was done to avoid cutting into electrical, thinking it was water, though the electrical is buried 12" below the water to comply with NEC. Having had a water spigot run over that required opening the trench - the color coding is as visible as the day it was applied.
While the attached pictures are scary - the only time I've seen stuff like that was when I had to hire a licensed electrician. I used to live in the City of Houston and needed a house rewired quickly and a certificate for the insurance company (knob and tube had to go). While I am a PE licensed to design electrical circuits/equipment in the State of Texas, I am unable to pull a permit in the CoH. I am also prohibited from taking the test to get an electrician's license because I don't have eight years as a journeyman. But I digress, the licensed electrician made flying splices in the attic, left entire rooms without power because he coudn't figure out his own schematic/approach to rewiring, left open junction boxes, failed to terminate the service correctly, etc. The real winner was finding the outlet in the kitchen didn't work because it was cross wired to two different circuits. What makes this worse is that the entire job was inspected by the CoH inspector and appproved - I doubt he even slowed down when he drove by. I spent two days finishing the job while the man with the license sat there and told me stories about how hard it was to pass the license exam. Oh, and he didn't staple or secure a thing. The only thing holding wires together were the nuts in the junction boxes, no wire clamps, no staples, no conduit, nada. Oh, and he didn't even tape the nuts, despite the level of mechanical support he was expecting them to supply.
A long winded story to say that Code/NEC/whatever won't protect from incompetence and corruption whether licensed or not and that if you understand why NEC/Code require what they do, calculated risks like using white versus gray shouldn't be an emotional issue. You may also understand why it is I grumble when I get passed by a truck bearing a union bumper sticker admonishing me that, "Electricity isn't a Hobby". What a joke. I found it wonderfully refreshing when the County Engineer's office, in response to a question about which model building code they use, responded with, "None. It's your house, if you don't want to use any nails, that's your choice." A little freedom still exists in the land of the free.