Ideas for putting in water line to barn

[toolaholic]

Hi Toolnut, My son in law and daughter have a geo buss. in Wash state.

Climate is milder there,of course . They generally excavate 2- 300ft. trenches 5 ft deep fot the loop. They operate their own track excavator. End of next month they recieve their new drill rig. ON small lots they will drill down 3 to 5 300 ft. holes and install plastic. wow, 3200 ft. , is that standard in Your area?? thank's Toolaholic

 

[BTDT]

What's the possibility of just drilling a well at the barn? 25' to the water here, your area may be different.

 

[dooleysm]

What about tapping into the water line supplying your house? That's what we did. My barn is between the house and the water meter, so I put a T into the line feeding the house with a shutoff valve to the barn supply. 1 frost free hydrant in the barn and one outside the barn. I use one or both daily for watering the dogs, garden, whatever.

 

[Dirthog]

rcmike the ground freezes from the top down not for the bottom up not only that if there is any snow at all on the ground there be no frost in the ground and the line will not freeze work for several water companys in this area and have not trouble doing this. The only exception is if you are driveing over the line is will freeze 3-4 feet or deeper

 

[rcmike]

I know how the ground freezes. But what does insulation have to do with that?

 

[Dirthog]

that is where the frost will come from the top a 2' wide ditch with insulation on top of the pipe will be more than enough barier to stop the line from freezing

 

[toolnut]

Hi Toolaholic... I'm being conservative, but once the yard is torn up (hiring an excavator as well), I figure there is no sense in just trying to save a few dollars on pipe. The HDPE is only about 20 cents a foot, I'm putting 4 lengths per trench, 4 trenches, 200 ft each. Installing a 3.5 ton compressor. The main variable is actually the thermal resistance of the soil..drilling is better in that sense cause you are more like to get down to at least wet soil and that makes a big difference. In my case I think I have pretty good conditions, but really won't know for several years. And finally... ya can't really have too much pipe in the ground, of course diminishing returns as the entering water temp approaches the ground temp, which in this part of the world is about 52 degrees 6ft down. According my design calcs, worst case I should see 35 degree entering water temp....but the heat pump will still put out heat at lower temps, so there is some safety factor. Of course, the higher the entering water temp, the higher the COP, so again it's a cost trade off.

Thanks for all the other suggestions..still pondering the best layout, but I do have a lot limitations in regards to hooking up to the potable water supply.

One thing I found was heater tape, you wrap it around the pipe and it uses about 5 watt per foot to heat the pipe to prevent it from freezing. If I do choose the most direct route through the back wall, I was thinking of running this for the first 6 ft or so as it exits the house, just for use as a "backup" in case the geothermal water proved to not have enough heat to keep things warm. I sure won't want to run that all the time, but for a couple of days out of the year it might be good insurance...anybody have any experience with that stuff? I think it was called "easy heat", you could cut it to whatever length you needed, but I'll need to look into how the thermostat in them really works.

toolnut... aka Craig

 

[turnkey4099]

1. Heat tape: Unless things have changed since I last used one, heat tape cannot be used on plastic pipe.

2. Insulation: Relying on the geothermal pipe to supply heat and insulating the water line: The geothermal will not help if you have the pipe insulated separate from it. Best would be to have both lines in common insulation.

3. Type of pipe: Someone up-thread mentioned the freeze resistance of various pipe. Galvanised pipe will freeze and break - probably faster than any other type. Plastice pipe (except for PVC) is fairly freeze proof. It swells with the ice. I have had PVC fitting freeze and crack.

For your run, I wouild uise the black plastic pipe that come in big rolls. Used for potable water service commonly everywhere. Fittings are all insert/clamp and are available everywhere. Transfering from that to Galv at standpipes, etc is a snap.

Harry K

Harry K

 

[Diesel-ME]

There are many heat tapes that are rated for use on plastic. Most tapes use between 3-7 watts per foot. I wouldn't "steal" heat from the geothermal to keep the water from freezing, rather install a few feet of heat tape from the basement on down to the point where you get below the frost line.

Also regarding insulating the water line - waterproof pipe insulation is going to be expensive. Assuming you get the majority of the line below the frost line, your only concern (as others have noted) would be if you drive over this line. What I have done when burying lines under a driveway is to start backfilling the trench then add a 2' wide swath of foam board insulation to block the frost from reaching the pipe. It's cheap and easy. Your only problem would be if you use a very narrow bucket when digging the trenches, but you could always dig the water line trench wider (part way up) to accomodate the foam board. This is the same principle as laying foam horizontally around a slab foundation in cold climates to block the frost.

If you really want to insulate the water pipe, check out the insulated pipes that are used on outdoor wood boilers.

~paul

 

[schmism]

i recently spec'd out and installed 150' of water line to my new trailer on my property.

I was initally quoted about $.40 a foot for 200PSI 1" pex. so i went with it. when it arived i got 100 foot and 2 $23 fittings for a total cost of nearly $.80 a foot.

i sent it back, and got 20' lenght 1" sec 40 bell end PVC for $.30 per foot. I rented a 4x48" trencher and put it ~24" down but was limited by the seasonal high water table that turned the bottom 6" of my trench into a giagantic mud hole (ppppsssstttttt trenchers dont like mud) (i was shooting for 30-36" deep)

The 20' PVC glues up SUPER quick and IMHO is just as easy to install as the PEX.

200psi pex (water line grade, not sprinkler grade 80/100psi stuff) comes in 100, 300 and 500 foot rolls. The cost per foot did NOT drop based on buying a larger roll. My supplyer of pex indicated that the main company that supplies PEX and fittings for water line were redesigning the barb'd fittings due to there unusally high ablity to be installed incorrectly and thus result in service issues down the road. (So go with the clamp on style)

a 4" wide trench is plenty wide to put a 1" water line in, but is a biach to back fill and any remove spoils by hand via a 4" treching shovel. If i do it again id go min 6" no matter how thin my pipe/wire was.

(lowes only has 4" and 5")
Do NOT, i repeat DO NOT fool with a 2 wheel trencher, they suck, you WILL want a 4 wheel walk-beside (or ride on) version. (ask me how i know)