Gas from water? - A delusion, or maybe not.

[alchemysa]

It'll be no surprise that petrol prices are on my mind (and everyone else's) so I decided to take another look at the 'gas from water' idea. Believe me, I'm a sceptic, and I don't hoax easy, so I didnt go into this too starry eyed, but I did read enough initially to at least think there may be something worth investigating.

I wasn't interested in reading rubbish published by internet promoters trying to make a killing out of this (there are plenty of those and most of them ARE scammers) but I did want to read what the backyarders are up to.

My research took me through countless blogs and eventually to a yahoo group with 12,000 members (or maybe they are just 'lookers') and 35,000 messages. Theres a lot of loose ends (and loose brains) among the files but scattered among the messages were a few bits and pieces that were hard to totally dismiss.

A point worth mentioning here is that almost no-one on this group is trying to make a car that runs totally on water. (They're not THAT crazy). They are mainly just trying to improve the performance of the petrol engine by adding a little hydrogen and oxygen gas through the air intake. Most of you will be well aware that hydrogen and oxygen are easily extracted from water by electrolysis, and you were probably totally underwhelmed by the sight of a few tiny little bubbles coming off the electrodes in school science classes.

But what may surprise you now is that these guys in this group are making pretty simple, cheap, 'under the hood' systems that they claim are producing nearly 2 litres of hydrogen/oxygen gas per minute! Now, as a combustion additive to a system, I think thats starting to become a rather significant amount. MPG improvements of 10-20% were commonly claimed. (And at todays gas prices I'm suddenly more open minded about this.).

I think we've all heard a dozen good reasons why this CAN'T possibly work but before commenting I urge you to spend a few minutes looking through the attachments. The pdf titled 'Chapter10 p1-55' would be a good place to start. This is from the files of the Yahoo group and if it doesn't give you pause for thought I'll be disappointed. If nothing else, it shows some of these guys are dedicated.

I certainly haven't made my mind up about this yet but I'm interested to hear CONSIDERED OPINIONS from you guys. I'd especially like to hear from anyone who has actually tried it.

watercar : Daniel Dingel's Hydrogen-Powered Car

(The 'Smack' system seems to be the best documented and tested system).

 

[Blagadan]

The first thing that comes to mind about this is... If it does produce up to 20% more MPG efficiency then why have the car manufacturers NOT developed this and fitted it as standard or as an optional accessory? You can be sure they have heard about hydroxy and looked into it.

It sounds too simple to make a little hydrogen generator and plumb it into your air intake...

Having said that, i am interested in following this. I recently read a lot of information about the Smack system just out of curiosity. It is a very nice DIY project. If you build it, make sure you do a thread on it here with your findings so we can follow it...!!

 

[Reg]

At least on a theoretical basis enriching the air with a little extra oxygen and a little extra hydrogen could provide some of the power that would normally be required from the fossil fuel.
You would need to at least do some basic arithmetic to figure if this is practical.

Lets see, for a 2 liter gas engine (nominal "small/medium" car) without a turbo the 4 cycle operation says that "consumes" 2 liters of air every 2 revolutions,
or 1,000 liters per minute at 1,000 RPM.
Of that air only about 1/5th is oxygen, most of the rest of it being nitrogen.
So far it looks like these devices MIGHT add a percent or two to the required combustion oxygen at idling and very low speeds - and perhaps some usable hydrogen.
Ooops, I almost forgot; turbos are pretty good at squirting extra air in & BTW are a mature and reliable technology that isn't VERY expensive. So at least on the oxygen side of the argument there are better ways of getting more.

I don't know the "energy value" of the added hydrogen, but I don't think I'm going to bother to find out. There is so little of it from these devices that I suspect it woudn't be useful. I don't always buy into the "every little helps" attitude.

 

[DocHeb]

I must admit that I did not read the articles, since I don't need to read 200 pages to know that the laws of thermodynamics still hold. The increase in gas mileage from burning Hydrogen and Oxygen comes from reversing the 2H2O conversion to 2H2+O2. This conversion comes from energy from the engine and battery. You will not get more energy out from what is put in. If you did it would be a plan for a perpetual motion machine (which everyone knows the oil companies already have and are hiding to protect their energy monopoly, along with cold fusion and 200 mpg carberators )

Now if you could have a solar electrolysis machine on your roof of the car......

 

[alchemysa]

The first thing that comes to mind about this is... If it does produce up to 20% more MPG efficiency then why have the car manufacturers NOT developed this and fitted it as standard or as an optional accessory? !!

Thats a fair question. But LPG is clearly a much cheaper alternative than petrol. Why do none of the big boys offer that as standard? And I'm not sure if any of them offer it as an option either. LPG is a hugely popular after-market accessory over here. Most of the taxis run on it. My parents drove LPG cars and towed caravans around Australia for twenty years. But the car makers just dont seem to want to get serious about it. I dont know why.

 

[MikePA]

Why do none of the big boys offer that as standard?

Simple. Places to refill them are few and far between in the auto-makers largest markets. The aftermarket has filled this niche for fleet vehicles.

And I'm not sure if any of them offer it as an option either.

Why would they spend the millions to develop, test and set up manufacturing capability for an option very few people will buy? In other words, there's no market for the 'big boys' to do this.

 

[alchemysa]

I must admit that I did not read the articles, since I don't need to read 200 pages to know that the laws of thermodynamics still hold. The increase in gas mileage from burning Hydrogen and Oxygen comes from reversing the 2H2O conversion to 2H2+O2. This conversion comes from energy from the engine and battery. You will not get more energy out from what is put in. If you did it would be a plan for a perpetual motion machine (which everyone knows the oil companies already have and are hiding to protect their energy monopoly, along with cold fusion and 200 mpg carberators )

Now if you could have a solar electrolysis machine on your roof of the car......

The engine is burning petrol. The water/gas convertor is using electricity just like your headlights. Its consuming petrol, electricity and water. Eventually it will run out of petrol and stop - just like an ordinary engine. I don't understand why you compare it to 'perpetual motion machine'.

 

[alchemysa]

Why would they spend the millions to develop, test and set up manufacturing capability for an option very few people will buy? In other words, there's no market for the 'big boys' to do this.

It doesn't sound like you really know anything about LPG. Its already hugely popular over here. Every 'petrol' station sells LPG. Theres a 2-3 month wait to get a conversion. The government is offering a $1000 cashback to encourage conversions. Its already developed, tested, and on the market.

 

[MikePA]

It doesn't sound like you really know anything about LPG. Its already hugely popular over here. Every 'petrol' station sells LPG. Theres a 2-3 month wait to get a conversion. The government is offering a $1000 cashback to encourage conversions. Its already developed, tested, and on the market.

You conveniently ignored the phrase I used, "in their largest markets'. There is no LPG infrastructure, i.e., LPG filling stations, in the US, i.e., a large market.

 

[alchemysa]

You conveniently ignored the phrase I used, "in their largest markets'. There is no LPG infrastructure, i.e., LPG filling stations, in the US, i.e., a large market.

Well we might not count in your eyes, but GM, Ford and Toyota all think our market is big enough to have manufacturing plants over here. We had Mitsubishi until recently too, but they just crashed because they badly misjudged things and brought out another lemon. (A mid size front wheel drive with a 3.8 litre donk! Who the heck needs one of those?)