Dog food for thought

[tallyho8]

In the last couple of years we lost two very dearly loved little dogs. Snowie a cockapoo was 18 and Dusty a mini schnauzer-poodle cross was 21. Both came down with brain tumors and were very healthy until then. My wife has for the most part made all of the dog food from whole grains and cooked and raw meats. They do get some table scraps, raw bones, some rawhide chews and a few commercial dog treats though. Our 6 year old and one year old little dogs, god willing, will have long and healthy lives. Our dogs are our kids and darn it's hard losing them, downright hearbreaking.

I think it is remarkable and a testament to quality care that your dogs lived to such a ripe old age. The average life span for these dogs is 14 to 15. I have raised dogs for over 50 years and the oldest I ever had was a treeing walker that lived to 18.

Just remember, everything that is born will die sometime (including us) and no amount of love and care can make it live much longer than it's normal life span. We used to just attribute these deaths to "old age" but modern science has helped us put a cause to these deaths which serves no purpose other than to make us wonder if it would not have happened if we had done something differently.

 

[arrow]

I think it is remarkable and a testament to quality care that your dogs lived to such a ripe old age. The average life span for these dogs is 14 to 15. I have raised dogs for over 50 years and the oldest I ever had was a treeing walker that lived to 18.

Just remember, everything that is born will die sometime (including us) and no amount of love and care can make it live much longer than it's normal life span. We used to just attribute these deaths to "old age" but modern science has helped us put a cause to these deaths which serves no purpose other than to make us wonder if it would not have happened if we had done something differently.

Regarding your last paragraph TH. My question is , what is a normal life span for a dog or us for that matter if we do not connect with a cancer situation. Many people regard cancer as an inevitable event if you live long enough and that may just be the case. But if there is something we can do or discover about these deaths then certainly it serves a purpose to know the cause of death. Look how many diseases were controlled as a result of knowing cause of death such as tuberculosis, or typhoid or small pox and in the dog world with rabies, mange and tick born diseases. A stinkin coyote can live for 14 years out in the wild with no care whatsoever and wolves live 14 to 18 years with the same conditions, I'm thinking our dogs should be able to top that without this prevalence of cancer. I think Ray goes a long way to add longevity to his pets by his feed choices but it would be great if all of us can enjoy our pets for as long as he can and that takes some exploration and questioning with a touch of doubt.

 

[dmccarty]

... A stinkin coyote can live for 14 years out in the wild with no care whatsoever and wolves live 14 to 18 years with the same conditions, I'm thinking our dogs should be able to top that without this prevalence of cancer. ...

But the coyote and wolf are being bred such that the strongest survive. The weak die. The coyote and wolf do not inbreed. On the other hand we inbreed our dog breeds. The breeding is not for survival but it is to make the dog cute, or conform to a man made standard of breed rightness. Good breeders breed toward a standard and for the health of the dog. But to maintain the breed there is still inbreeding.

Dogs in our society don't have to hunt for food, they just have to be cute, roll over on the back, or wag their tail to get something to eat. Not really much survival of the fittest in looking cute.

Later,
Dan

 

[tallyho8]

Regarding your last paragraph TH. My question is , what is a normal life span for a dog or us for that matter if we do not connect with a cancer situation. Many people regard cancer as an inevitable event if you live long enough and that may just be the case. But if there is something we can do or discover about these deaths then certainly it serves a purpose to know the cause of death. Look how many diseases were controlled as a result of knowing cause of death such as tuberculosis, or typhoid or small pox and in the dog world with rabies, mange and tick born diseases. A stinkin coyote can live for 14 years out in the wild with no care whatsoever and wolves live 14 to 18 years with the same conditions, I'm thinking our dogs should be able to top that without this prevalence of cancer. I think Ray goes a long way to add longevity to his pets by his feed choices but it would be great if all of us can enjoy our pets for as long as he can and that takes some exploration and questioning with a touch of doubt.

Perhaps I didn't word my last paragraph as properly as I should have. The point I was trying to relay was that any time an animal dies after it has lived much longer than it's average life span it is a credit to it's owner that it survived for so long. A necropsy of an animal that lived much longer than usual will reveal a cause of death, other than "old age", and when a grieving owner hears that cause, he wonders if possibly he did, or didn't do, something that contributed to the death, causing him more grief than if he simply heard that the animal died of old age.

IMO the total length of an animal's life span is determined by his genes and there is nothing practical an owner can do do extend that animal's lifetime past the maximum number of years predetermined by his genes. With proper care you can prevent it's life from ending earlier.

There are many people who believe that we can find a cure for cancer, a cure for heart disease, a cure for strokes and a cure for everything that can cause an animal to die. If this is indeed possible, then humans can create immortality,either that or we will all die completely healthy, without cause.

I agree that over a period of time, research and scientific discoveries can cause a specie's lives to be extended by preventing premature deaths and thereby increasing life spans controlled by genes through heredity but this can not be practically done on an individual basis.

Now, did I make myself clear?

 

[jimmyj]

I wish I knew more about free radical damage and their relationship with cancer.

This string has very excellent points in it. The greatest point of all to me is the great comfort I take from all of your passion for your pets.

We all wish they could live the longest, healthiest lives possible. I think food being "corrupted" by processing and profit interests can't really be a good thing. On the other hand, we'd not do very well if we were all still subsistance farming. I wonder if the cancer thing is a culmination of many factors as some of you have pointed out:
-diet
-environment
-breeding
-??

I wonder if we will ever know.

 

[arrow]

Perhaps I didn't word my last paragraph as properly as I should have. The point I was trying to relay was that any time an animal dies after it has lived much longer than it's average life span it is a credit to it's owner that it survived for so long. A necropsy of an animal that lived much longer than usual will reveal a cause of death, other than "old age", and when a grieving owner hears that cause, he wonders if possibly he did, or didn't do, something that contributed to the death, causing him more grief than if he simply heard that the animal died of old age.

IMO the total length of an animal's life span is determined by his genes and there is nothing practical an owner can do do extend that animal's lifetime past the maximum number of years predetermined by his genes. With proper care you can prevent it's life from ending earlier.

There are many people who believe that we can find a cure for cancer, a cure for heart disease, a cure for strokes and a cure for everything that can cause an animal to die. If this is indeed possible, then humans can create immortality,either that or we will all die completely healthy, without cause.

I agree that over a period of time, research and scientific discoveries can cause a specie's lives to be extended by preventing premature deaths and thereby increasing life spans controlled by genes through heredity but this can not be practically done on an individual basis.

Now, did I make myself clear?

you have now. I agree. I do not thnk we can extend life any further than our or any other animal's genetic makeup allows. I do think we may be shortening up lifespans with some of our lifestyle choices and possibly food ingredients. If we did not die of cancer or heart disease or our dogs did not as well, I wonder how much longer we and our pets could live out to. I need to research this part more. I need to find out if cancer is indeed the end game of cells going crazy after being dividing for so long. I see mutts getting cancer where you would think the hybrid vigor of such an out cross would help the health issue with them. Eventually , we may find what "died of old age" really is or maybe we know already.

 

[Redbug]

I have been feeding mine Nutro Ultra. All the dog food sold in Walmart is not very good food. Here's one good source...
Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost

 

[jimmyj]

Hey Redbug.

Nutro was recently bought by another major food company. Watch the quality very carefully in case it changes to cheapen the formula.

 

[Redbug]

Thanks Jimmy...I did not know that. I will watch my dog and cross check the ingredients. I know there have been recent problems with Canidae, (another good dog food), because of ingredient changes. I know to most folks it seems a bit weird about the interest in just ole dog food. But my pets are my family, too. The only bad thing is some of these good foods are expensive, but the dogs generally eat less of it than the ones with more fillers in it.

Here's another good set of dog food ratings/listings from a shepherd forum I frequent...Hopefully, you all can learn something from it as well.


1) For every listing of 'by-product' , subtract 10 points
2) For every non-specific animal source ('meat' or 'poultry', meat, meal or
fat) reference, subtract 10 points
3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points
4) For every grain 'mill run' or non-specific grain source, subtract 5
points
5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five
ingredients (i.e. 'ground brown rice', 'brewer's rice', 'rice flour' are all
the same grain), subtract 5 points
6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats
in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points
7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points
8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points
9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points
10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2
points
11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic
to other protein sources), subtract 2 points
12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points
13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to
wheat), subtract 2 points
14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to
beef), subtract 1 point
15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point
Extra Credit:
1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points
2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5
points
3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points
4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points
5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points
6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points
7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points
8 ) If the food contains barley, add 2 points
9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points
10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point
11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point
12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first
one; count 'chicken' and 'chicken meal' as only one protein source, but
'chicken' and '' as 2 different sources), add 1 point
13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point
14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

A = 94-100
B= 86-93
C = 78-85
D= 70-77
F= 70 or lower

Dog Food scores:
Alpo Prime Cuts / Score 81 C
Artemis Large/Medium Breed Puppy / Score 114 A+
Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+
Authority Harvest Baked Less Active / Score 93 B
Beowulf Back to Basics / Score 101 A+
Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F
Blackwood 3000 Lamb and Rice / Score 83 C
Blue Buffalo Chicken and Rice / Score 106 A+
Burns Chicken and Brown Rice / Score 107 A+
Canidae / Score 112 A+
Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+
Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F
Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B
Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A
Diamond Performance / Score 85 C
Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+
Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice / Score 106 A+
Dick Van Patten's Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+
EaglePack Holistic / Score 102 A+
Eukanuba Adult / Score 81 C
Eukanuba Puppy / Score 79 C
Flint River Senior / Score 101 A+
Foundations / Score 106 A+
Hund-n-Flocken Adult Dog (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 B
Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D
Innova Dog / Score 114 A+
Innova Evo / Score 114 A+
Innova Large Breed Puppy / Score 122 A+
Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+
Member's Mark Chicken and Rice / Score 84 C
Merrick Wilderness Blend / Score 127 A+
NaturalLife Nutritional Pet Products Adult Lamaderm / Score 84 C+
Nature's Recipe / Score 100 A
Nature's Recipe Healthy Skin Venison and Rice / Score 116 A+
Nature's Variety Raw Instinct / Score 122 A+
Nutra Nuggets Super Premium Lamb Meal and Rice / Score 81 C
Nutrience Junior Medium Breed Puppy / Score 101 A+
Nutrisource Lamb and Rice / Score 87 B
Nutro Max Adult / Score 93 B
Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice / Score 98 A
Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B
Nutro Natural Choice Puppy Wheat Free / Score 86 B
Nutro Natural Choice Senior / Score 95 A
Nutro Ultra Adult / Score 104 A+
Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F
Premium Edge Chicken, Rice and Vegetables Adult Dry / Score 109 A+
Pro Nature Puppy / Score 80 C
Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach / Score 94 A
Purina Ben ful / Score 17 F
Purina Dog / Score 62 F
Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F
Purina One Large Breed Puppy / Score 62 F
Royal Canin Boxer / Score 103 A+
Royal Canin Bulldog / Score 100 A+
Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+
Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F
Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F
Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A
Solid Gold / Score 99 A
Summit / Score 99 A
Taste of the Wild with Roasted Bison & Roasted Venison / Score 108 A+
Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural Dry / Score 120 A+
Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+
Wolfking Adult Dog (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A

 

[DocHeb]

Here's a sort by score (with no judgment on the scoring methodology):

Merrick Wilderness Blend / Score 127 A+
Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+
Innova Large Breed Puppy / Score 122 A+
Nature's Variety Raw Instinct / Score 122 A+
Timberwolf Organics Wild & Natural Dry / Score 120 A+
Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+
Nature's Recipe Healthy Skin Venison and Rice / Score 116 A+
Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+
Artemis Large/Medium Breed Puppy / Score 114 A+
Innova Dog / Score 114 A+
Innova Evo / Score 114 A+
Canidae / Score 112 A+
Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+
Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+
Premium Edge Chicken, Rice and Vegetables Adult Dry / Score 109 A+
Taste of the Wild with Roasted Bison & Roasted Venison / Score 108 A+
Burns Chicken and Brown Rice / Score 107 A+
Blue Buffalo Chicken and Rice / Score 106 A+
Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Venison and Brown Rice / Score 106 A+
Dick Van Patten's Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+
Foundations / Score 106 A+
Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+
Nutro Ultra Adult / Score 104 A+
Royal Canin Boxer / Score 103 A+
EaglePack Holistic / Score 102 A+
Beowulf Back to Basics / Score 101 A+
Flint River Senior / Score 101 A+
Nutrience Junior Medium Breed Puppy / Score 101 A+
Nature's Recipe / Score 100 A
Royal Canin Bulldog / Score 100 A
Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A
Solid Gold / Score 99 A
Summit / Score 99 A
Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice / Score 98 A
Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A
Wolfking Adult Dog (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A
Nutro Natural Choice Senior / Score 95 A
Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach / Score 94 A
Authority Harvest Baked Less Active / Score 93 B
Hund-n-Flocken Adult Dog (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 B
Nutro Max Adult / Score 93 B
Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B
Nutrisource Lamb and Rice / Score 87 B
Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B
Nutro Natural Choice Puppy Wheat Free / Score 86 B
Diamond Performance / Score 85 C
Member's Mark Chicken and Rice / Score 84 C
NaturalLife Nutritional Pet Products Adult Lamaderm / Score 84 C
Blackwood 3000 Lamb and Rice / Score 83 C
Alpo Prime Cuts / Score 81 C
Eukanuba Adult / Score 81 C
Nutra Nuggets Super Premium Lamb Meal and Rice / Score 81 C
Pro Nature Puppy / Score 80 C
Eukanuba Puppy / Score 79 C
Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D
Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F
Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F
Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F
Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F
Purina Dog / Score 62 F
Purina One Large Breed Puppy / Score 62 F
Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F
Purina Ben ful / Score 17 F
Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F