Liquid Natural Gas and Propane prices

[charlz]

Originally Posted by dave1949

But yet, based upon personal bias some choose to reject any facts about global warming. I will never understand it, it just isn't logical.

You mean like the fact that, contrary to the global warming models, the oceans haven't been warming the last five years but instead slightly cooling? (NASA scientists puzzled as data show oceans actually cooling - Green Daily)

I think the only fact about global warming is that no one really knows anything either way.

[westcliffe01]

If you melt ice into the sea, it is possible that surface buoys may see lower temperatures. The greater question is whether summer sea ice continues to receed and whether land based ice in mainly the northern hemisphere continues to melt. I have yet to hear of any known glacier advancing instead of receeding, which they are doing now.

Something many people get hung up on is the question of who is to blame for climate change. While it may not be directly the result of industrialization, there is no question that populations continue to rise, forest cover continues to be depleted and it is possible that tiny organisms like phytoplankton are being destroyed by pollution. When one considers that our atmosphere only became what it is due to conversion of carbon dioxide into oxygen by such tiny organisms, it is entirely possible that we are headed in the opposite direction if we disturb the natural balance.

As long as indicators like glacier recession and actic pack ice continue to trend in the same direction with rising CO2 levels, one should stop the denial and consider what we can do, and must do (and the most important thing may not be tailpipe emissions) before milions are displaced by rising sea levels. When a cash flush China goes looking for land for hundreds of millions of Chinese in low lying coastal areas, it is doubtful they will win any diplomatic awards....

[dave1949]

Originally Posted by charlz

You mean like the fact that, contrary to the global warming models, the oceans haven't been warming the last five years but instead slightly cooling? (NASA scientists puzzled as data show oceans actually cooling - Green Daily)

I think the only fact about global warming is that no one really knows anything either way.

Certainly much that is unknown about global warming. That's why the study of it and similar things are a science and not a belief system. I have no problem with scientists being puzzled. But I don't think that translates to 'no one knows either way'. It's certainly true no one knows what exactly will happen.

Some climate models predict the freshwater dilution (due to ice melting) of the Gulf Stream will essentially shut it down. Warmer tropical ocean water would cease to reach northern Atlantic latitudes, triggering glacial growth, possibly tipping into an Ice Age.

The article you linked is from March, 2008. In July, 2009 the average global ocean temperature was the highest ever recorded. Several cargo ships passed through the Artic this summer where sea ice normally does not allow it.

Sea level rises have already caused several low Pacific islands to become unihabitable, plus some villages in the Arctic. These places are far from anywhere and not much is heard about them, very few residents, so it isn't sensational enough to get much notice in the news.

Bottom line, I put more significance on scientific research and actual observations and data collection than what the hucksters and spinners say on some wing-nut talk show or blog. They are not global warming deniers based upon facts, but rather because they perceive it and frame it as a liberal cause. They get very wealthy whether they are right or wrong.

Dave.

[roadhawk]

We got 131 gallons of propane yesterday and got it at the "new customer" price of $1.99 since that is what the competition had and we generally only need it once a year for the hot water heater.

Last year we needed 178 gallons, so the new water heater must be having a pretty good impact on our usage.

[tommu56]

They are drilling as I write this 5 miles from my cabin for gas and in a month or so are going to fraq a well drilled a year and a half ago.

There is a new process to fraq with propane in stead of tall the junk thwy are using with the water time will tell.

Propane fracs run at New Brunswick gas wells - Oil & Gas Journal

here is a pa link to gas forum
Natural Gas & Oil Lease Forum


Texas forum
Go Haynesville Shale

tom

[charlz]

We are getting way off on a tangent from the original post but....

Originally Posted by westcliffe01

Something many people get hung up on is the question of who is to blame for climate change.

I think what people get hung up on is this quote I read many years ago:

"The biggest mistake people make is to believe that the way things are today is the way they will always be."

Originally Posted by westcliffe01

While it may not be directly the result of industrialization, there is no question that populations continue to rise, forest cover continues to be depleted and it is possible that tiny organisms like phytoplankton are being destroyed by pollution. When one considers that our atmosphere only became what it is due to conversion of carbon dioxide into oxygen by such tiny organisms, it is entirely possible that we are headed in the opposite direction if we disturb the natural balance.

You have hit on a key point... balance... which is exactly what the quote above is about. Who said that there is a 'natural balance' or that anything should be 'balanced'? Is the weather where you live 'balanced'? Is it always the same? On what scale? Daily? Million year basis?

I believe in cycles... everywhere you look in nature there are cycles. Day and then night, winter and then summer. Some cycles are related... rabbit populations rise, coyote populations rise, rabbit populations go down, coyote populations go down. Ice ages followed by warm periods. Over the long term you very well may have 'balance' but in the short term well.... 'stuff' happens.

Originally Posted by westcliffe01

As long as indicators like glacier recession and actic pack ice continue to trend in the same direction with rising CO2 levels, one should stop the denial and consider what we can do, and must do (and the most important thing may not be tailpipe emissions) before milions are displaced by rising sea levels. When a cash flush China goes looking for land for hundreds of millions of Chinese in low lying coastal areas, it is doubtful they will win any diplomatic awards....

And therein lies a train of thought... what can we do? what is the cause? Obviously man is the cause... right? couldn't just be some natural cycle because everything should be the same as yesterday/last year/last decade. It has to be the all-powerful and evil 'man' spewing forth his contaminated and unnatural essence upon the planet. So where does that train of thought lead? Less people... anti-human... saving the life of one whale/eagle/bacteria is worth all the human life in existence. Perhaps we can 'trim the fat'? Maybe start with those 'different' than ourselves? It's surely not something we want to do .... it's what we must do... for the planet.

That is a dangerous line of thought when taken to its inevitable conclusion. I am not a global-warming denier. I am simply not so quick to jump to the conclusion that man is the cause and that we are not observing a natural cycle.

[Duffster]

Originally Posted by roadhawk

for the hot water heater.
.

Why are you heating hot water?

[westcliffe01]

The point is that regardless of the cause (maybe the sun is becoming a red giant ?) if the oceans rise and new deserts form, it is not going to be acceptable doing nothing. One day that may mean packing up a lifeboat and looking for a new planet, but there may be more dying ahead for a large part of the population than what has been seen since the dawn of "civilization". If you can accept having your quality of life (or childrens) drastically altered, that may be OK, but everyone expects someone else to suffer in this land of "me first".

It will not take much more drying before much of the west coast will have to get their water from desalination. We will be building nuclear reactors for desalination before electricity. There are already wells drying up west of the rockies, yet Las Vegas expects to keep living in ya ya land, if that means buying out everyone between las Vegas and the Rockies and pumping out all the groundwater so they can keep "living it up".

Its just like the economic and real estate "bubbles", the problems come from living beyond our means. When the climate, that is the basis of all life is threatened, we can't expect to get away with living beyond our means either, someone will have to pay. Possibly just future generations. All that is asked is to try to conserve resources, nothing more, nothing less.

[turbo36]

Originally Posted by westcliffe01

The point is that regardless of the cause (maybe the sun is becoming a red giant ?) if the oceans rise and new deserts form, it is not going to be acceptable doing nothing. One day that may mean packing up a lifeboat and looking for a new planet, but there may be more dying ahead for a large part of the population than what has been seen since the dawn of "civilization". If you can accept having your quality of life (or childrens) drastically altered, that may be OK, but everyone expects someone else to suffer in this land of "me first".

It will not take much more drying before much of the west coast will have to get their water from desalination. We will be building nuclear reactors for desalination before electricity. There are already wells drying up west of the rockies, yet Las Vegas expects to keep living in ya ya land, if that means buying out everyone between las Vegas and the Rockies and pumping out all the groundwater so they can keep "living it up".

Its just like the economic and real estate "bubbles", the problems come from living beyond our means. When the climate, that is the basis of all life is threatened, we can't expect to get away with living beyond our means either, someone will have to pay. Possibly just future generations. All that is asked is to try to conserve resources, nothing more, nothing less.

Since we both live next to the largest fresh water system in the world we have a great sense of what will happen when "push comes to shove". When the aquifers that supply the southern states finally dry out they will look north to all this water and say "why not?".

[charlz]

Originally Posted by westcliffe01

The point is that regardless of the cause (maybe the sun is becoming a red giant ?) if the oceans rise and new deserts form, it is not going to be acceptable doing nothing. One day that may mean packing up a lifeboat and looking for a new planet, but there may be more dying ahead for a large part of the population than what has been seen since the dawn of "civilization". If you can accept having your quality of life (or childrens) drastically altered, that may be OK, but everyone expects someone else to suffer in this land of "me first".

It will not take much more drying before much of the west coast will have to get their water from desalination. We will be building nuclear reactors for desalination before electricity. There are already wells drying up west of the rockies, yet Las Vegas expects to keep living in ya ya land, if that means buying out everyone between las Vegas and the Rockies and pumping out all the groundwater so they can keep "living it up".

So what would happen if the current trend was: Coming Ice Age (like it was a decade or so ago)? You don't think that drying and desertification would happen as trillions upon trillions of gallons of water were increasingly locked up in the ice caps? How do you know that 99% of the time between ice ages the West Coast isn't so dry it can't support any life? That we have been living in the 1% 'super-wet fantasy land' where life can actually exist there? I am shocked and amazed that people are shocked and amazed that the environment will change... didn't we all learn that not too long ago (geologically speaking) the planet was hot, moist and supported massive plant and animal life(dinosaurs)? Does that sound the same as today's environment? Does evolution, both of the planet and the animals on it, stop when we reach a 'comfortable spot'?

Why do people assume more heat means drying/desertification? Rising oceans mean more surface area for evaporation. Rising ocean temperatures mean more evaporation. Higher air temperatures mean more 'carrying capacity' for humidity. Sounds like a recipe for rain, not deserts to me.

What would we 'do' in the case of coming Ice Age? Start running pre-mix in our cars and trucks to create as many green house gasses as possible? Burn everything in sight and fly the ashes to the poles to blacken them and try to melt them?

Our time span of 'recorded history' is so short it's laughable to think we know what is coming or that we have or can have any effect on it. Personally I would welcome global warming over a new ice age because food doesn't grow in ice.