Had to laugh...

[arrow]

Allow me to talk about what I know. It goes back some (1995) but the ratios should remain compatible. In 1995, A Dodge Intrepid was selling for 16 to 22K. It cost $9400 to build the car, of which labor amounted to $1800. The rest of the money went to overhead, rebates, pension funding, advertising and litigation cost. Also thrown in were cost profiles for call backs. In the end, there is not alot of profit margin for the average car and is why auto companies love selling $60000 suv's as they do not cost much more than to build a $30000 car. Believe me when I tell you, there is no straight up car company. Everything they do, including appearing honest and above board has to do with the bottom line. Ford didn't take any tarp funds not because they weren't in trouble as they were hemorrhaging money, they refused because they wanted to maintain company control. They are all trying to save money at every juncture and unfortunately, when they get too caught up with this, sometimes lives are at stake as a result. If you live your life with these concerns, you would not buy any car. As with everything else, its all a large balancing game.

 

[dave1949]

BAM!!!! and there it is the truth !!!

I know we're all suppose to support the American line and worker, BUT CAN I ASK when did they support us? Sorry but the truth is black and white, you want to play with fire plan on getting burnt!

I'd buy a toyota in a heart beat, my money is just as important to me as the UAW's is to them

Good Morning 20_20,

Just to keep your blood moving Does a Toyota cost more or less than a comparable Ford/GM model? My guess is there isn't that much difference these days, haven't done any car shopping lately. Sure, the imports gained market share originally by throwing in a lot of options cheaply, is that still true?

As for when did the UAW support us, well no they didn't/haven't to my knowledge. But, they are practicing capitalists like the rest of us

BTW 20_20, I just started reading 'In Defense Of Food' by Michael Pollan. Knowing we share a viewpoint on what passes for food in the grocery store, you would probably enjoy it if you haven't read it yet. He also wrote 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'; another good read about industrial food.
Dave.

 

[20 20]

Hey Dave1949

You are right Toyota may be about the same as a GM/Ford/Chrysler, but IMO built tougher. I still believe a toyota will out last an American vehicle{of course this depends on maintenance/care for either}. I just get wound up when someone cries the blues but have been living high off the hog. Then they expect everyone else to feel for them, where were they when others were down and out? I own American vehicles now, except for my chevy dump{it's really an isuzu NPR}. I also own a Honda road bike, cost WAY less then a Harley but the quility is much better. I don't hate American things but I don't care for those getting rich by screwing fellow Americans. When I worked for walcrap I'd laugh at folks that said they were shopping at walmart because it was American{bwahahahaha}. I worked on the packaging line we would take the product out of the foreign boxes and place them in new boxes that said "made in America". They later got in trouble for this so they changed the label to American proud{or something like that}. It's amazing what goes on just to screw folks out of their pay.

 

[20 20]

Good Morning 20_20,

As for when did the UAW support us, well no they didn't/haven't to my knowledge. But, they are practicing capitalists like the rest of us

I quess I was raised different from most, I believe in an honest days work for an honest days pay. That also means an honest price for an honest product. As the years have slipped by I realize this is an old saying and doesn't hold much merrit anymore truely said. I see so many third party jobs{what I like to call them} that just make prices sky rocket. Greed is what is killing this country, overall I see more greed and way less pride. We live were suing or shafting someone over is the norm. I'm not saying everyone is like this but BIG BUSINESS surely is and in the end money talks. I have NO issues with the guy that wants his piece of apple pie, but I believe he/she should buy the apples and not steal them.

BTW 20_20, I just started reading 'In Defense Of Food' by Michael Pollan. Knowing we share a viewpoint on what passes for food in the grocery store, you would probably enjoy it if you haven't read it yet. He also wrote 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'; another good read about industrial food.
Dave.

Thank you sir, I've been wanting to find a good book. When I get a chance I'll look it up. As of right now I have to fix a flat{front} on my tractor . I was going to knock down a tree for some lumber but the bottom of the tire was flat, top was fine

Sorry about the long rant and I'm really not a pesimist, just wonder what has/is happening?????? I enjoy most of the folks that visit this forum because they still show some hope for this country.

 

[dave1949]

I quess I was raised different from most, I believe in an honest days work for an honest days pay. That also means an honest price for an honest product. As the years have slipped by I realize this is an old saying and doesn't hold much merrit anymore truely said. I see so many third party jobs{what I like to call them} that just make prices sky rocket. Greed is what is killing this country, overall I see more greed and way less pride. We live were suing or shafting someone over is the norm. I'm not saying everyone is like this but BIG BUSINESS surely is and in the end money talks. I have NO issues with the guy that wants his piece of apple pie, but I believe he/she should buy the apples and not steal them.

Sorry about the long rant and I'm really not a pesimist, just wonder what has/is happening?????? I enjoy most of the folks that visit this forum because they still show some hope for this country.

I try to not be a pessimist also, somedays I do better than others No harm in ranting.

From the 30,000 foot view, to me it looks like what is happening is a global leveling of wages. We don't have anywhere to go but down in that scenario for unskilled or semi-skilled jobs. We are sinking and probably will continue to sink until the Chinese and Indians are earning the buying equivalent of around $10/hour. Then, we will all be poor together

Also, I have read some articles that state the years following WWII through the 1990's were historically unprecedented in terms of the standard of living enjoyed by the US middle class. Just way beyond what was accepted as normal in earlier times. I think that may be true. Consider the conditions following WWII:

The US had the only large economy left unscathed. The USSR effectively destroyed our competitors from eastern and central Europe. The baby boom provided an ever expanding market place for products. The discovery of new materials and production methods enabled many new products within economic reach of the average family. The ability to extract cheap oil fueled all it. It all came together in a perfect storm of economic good news for the US.

Times are changing. The days when an auto plant worker could buy a modest home, a nice car or two, a fishing boat, put a couple kids through college, and if thrifty, afford to own or share with family, a cottage on a lake; are probably just a memory.

What do you think about that?
Dave.

 

[Sigarms]

Times are changing. The days when an auto plant worker could buy a modest home, a nice car or two, a fishing boat, put a couple kids through college, and if thrifty, afford to own or share with family, a cottage on a lake; are probably just a memory.

What do you think about that?

In the late 80's when I graduated from college, for spending money and too keep busy, I worked in a plant in my local area that produced air filters. I had every job there was in the process to make those air filters, and I'd like to think I did a good job. If I remember correctly, I made about 1.00 over the minimum wage at the time. Lots of people in that plant that were much older than myself who might of made a couple bucks more an hour.

What do I think about what auto plant workers may not being able to afford two cars, a modest home, putting a couple of kids through college and if they're thrifty having a cottage on the lake?

I feel so sorry for them.

My dad spend over twenty years in the military, and although he's never been in debt, guess what? He didn't have the money to send me to college (although my parents did help me with my housing).

Know what thinking back about those days working at that air filter plant?

The two biggest employers in the area at that time that every guy dreamed of getting to work for (if they didn't go to college or the military) were union jobs. Haven't been "home" for some time, but the last I heard, one company went under a long time ago and the other isn't doing so good.

Perhaps I'm too much like my dad. When he got out of the military, my uncle "hooked him up" at a decent paying union job making garbage cans. Dad quit that job after six months and a lot of people in the family thought he was crazy for leaving that job. Dad mentioned that he hated doing monkee work and everyone he worked with was lazy and didn't take pride in what they did. I happen to feel the same way

 

[dave1949]

SigArms,

Do I detect a measure of Schadenfreude in your reply?

I was really asking along the lines of what do you think about the economy post WWII rather than the union workers. Did I say '!El Toro!' or something?

But, just to be a devil's advocate, those folks working for minimum wage + $2 - $3 in the air filter plant - they never had a boat or lake cottage or could afford to put their kids through school (so they wouldn't have to work a monkey job all their lives). They could work for low pay half their lives and have their jobs disappear to Mexico too.

There are all sorts of motivations and perspectives and I am not trying to offend yours or be judgemental about anyone. I am really more interested in the social history.

The union workers of the post-WWII period were also members of the 'Greatest Generation' - go figure. I sincerely think many of them went knowingly to their jobs because that was one of the best options they had in front of them, for attaining what they perceived as the 'good life' for their families. There was some sense of duty involved. I'm sure they realized it was mind-numbing - just like your Dad said. And then, half their kids became Hippies!

I described my brief union auto glass factory experience in another post, I don't blame you or your Dad for getting out, I couldn't do that for 30 years. It certainly isn't for everybody. Think of the generations of deep coal miners by way of comparison.
Dave.

 

[Sigarms]

There are all sorts of motivations and perspectives and I am not trying to offend yours or be judgemental about anyone

Dave, as long as you don't bring my wife or mother into it, I can assure you I won't be offended

Think of the generations of deep coal miners by way of comparison.

Ironically enough my grandfather who came over in a boat from Eastern Europe died in a coal mine. My other grandfather worked in the mines, but a dull ax caught his leg when he was in his late 40's and he died some time later from infection.

Perhaps we have come a ways.

Funny, talking about what car manufacturers may know or not know about their car's defects made me think of the Ford Pinto.

 

[20 20]

Times are changing. The days when an auto plant worker could buy a modest home, a nice car or two, a fishing boat, put a couple kids through college, and if thrifty, afford to own or share with family, a cottage on a lake; are probably just a memory.

What do you think about that?
Dave.

Hello Dave1949

I'd like to add to this if I may. "Times are changing. The days when"...... A ford or chevy would last 10 yrs like they should. It's funny how people WERE bettering their lives and making reliable products. Now we have throw away JUNK but pay much higher prices.

I've come to notice something lately, if your not a salesmen{person} then you'll fail. I see college kids with degrees smart as heck, lose a job to a twit because they didn't know how to sell themselves. Folks worry less about the product today and more about the sales pitch. That includes everything from toasters to a college degree. The sad part is the majority of society doesn't question it nor check into it. Years back when the old man bought a car it was ran through with a fine tooth comb. Today when a car is bought it depends on how cool it looked in a commercial. Society also buys on impulse as they've been slowly trained to do, instead of using common sense. IMO it is sad to see, but change will allways happen. Some say change is good,.,.,.,. is it?

 

[20 20]

I don't want to bash union, but I have to say this. I belonged to a couple of trucker unions{what a JOKE}. I worked at one place and got threats from other drivers because I WAS WORKING TO HARD! I felt I was doing honest runs and enjoyed my trips. I was met one day with one of our union reps and was told to slow down so that the drivers could bleed the trip for more hrs.{exact words} I took a run that was taking 20+hrs and did it in less then 12. I didn't sit at the truck stop or dinner and BS for hrs, I did the job/trip and went on to the next{I took normal breaks and meals}. These same co-slackers would sit and complain about high prices. This is just one example of what I encountered, I have many more incidences. What gave them{co-slackers} the right to complain when they are contributing themselves? IMO one can't complain when they're just as much to blame.

Okay I've got my Jimmy Hoffa flame retardent pants on so blast away!