220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff?

   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #11  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

Hoeman,

Any good ones I find, I have first dibs on, though I don't need a 7.5 hp. Only 2-3. But if I found a 7.5, I'd still claim it. Once you get the motor, it's only about $20 to build. If you know what capacitance you need. I am searching for the motor at the moment. Scrounging, mostly.

Nick
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #12  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

<font color=blue>And where there are no building codes and people can do whatever they want . . ., it's sometimes hard to believe what some folks have done.</font color=blue>

My favorite "save a buck" wiring job was in a duplex I lived in during medical school. The owner wanted to run wire to another site for an outlet. He took a length of 32 twisted-pair phone cable, separated out half the multicolored wires on one end for neutral and half for line - and at the other end sat there and separated out all the same colored wires to terminate in the box!
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #13  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

That's exactly what I was thinking of Nick, the buck booster. That's what the electrician installed on all of the beds.
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #14  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

Ches, I realize the questions been answered. For a little more info, know that the voltage to your home will change somewhat throughout the season. During the summer, it is not unusual to see voltage swings as much as 6 volts normally down from the high voltage. At my place, I average about 121 volts and have metered as low as 113 volts. The one thing that stays constant is the cycle, frequency or Hz. In the US it is 60 Hz. For other countries, 50 Hz is typical. It is important for things like clocks with motors and electronic equipment to be very close to 60 Hz. It would be unusual to be 61Hz or 59Hz. While most people still say 110v or 220v, more accurately it is 120 volts rms and 240 volts rms, as mentioned but the actual voltage will vary even from one leg to the other (120V is available from either leg to neutral). At your home it is not important with perhaps the exception of a few items. Power tools, lights, heaters, and many other items just aren't sensitive enough to care. More important then your voltage will actually be the current the welder draws. This will determine your wire and breaker size. The longer the wire run, the larger the wire size will need to be to keep the voltage drop to a minimum, this is important! Most folks will simply wire the welder based on the nameplate rating, ie., if it is 60 amp max at 240V, they will run a #6 THHN wire. The NEC actually allows you to base the wire size on the duty cycle as well. For simplicity, running a wire size based on a 100% duty cycle is always the easiest and safest bet. Rat...
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #15  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

Rat, you bring up an interesting point. Ches, sorry for straying from your original topic.

I have a new on the way. It is a 220 volt 30 amp unit (Model LMSW-52T 220 W/WELD TIMER). The equipment that I install for a living has its own sub panel in it but it does not have any 30 amp recepticles. So I was planning on getting my own 30 amp 220 volt breaker and wiring that up to a box with a 30 amp recepticle in it. Then when I need to use the welder I will just have to temporarily hook the breaker up to the sub panel. Although I don't have the welder yet Miller has all their <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.millerwelds.com/om/0700/o716a_mil.pdf>owners manuals online. On Fig 3-6 on page 10 of the manual it shows that my model needs #10 AWG wire and a 30 amp breaker. I will be leaving for a job soon after I get the welder so I wanted to buy the breaker, wire, and recepticle now so I have it to take with me. The manual didn't give a nema plug or recepticle number so I thought I would call Miller to get that information. So I called Miller and spoke with one of their sevice technicians. I told him the situation and asked him what the nema number was of the plug that comes on the welder. I told him that I assumed it was a nema 6-30p but I wanted to be sure. He said "ya that sounds right but let me look it up". He came back on the phone and told me it was a 6-15p. I then gave him the exact model number again and asked him to double check that. He did and said that they only needed a 15 amp plug on the unit because it has a 50% duty cycle. Later when I got home I dug deaper into the owners manual and in the parts breakdown they show that the power cord is only 16 gauge. I can't believe they are doing this. They state in the manual that the unit needs to be plugged into a 30 amp circuit wired with 10 gauge wire and they are putting a 15 amp plug on 16 gauge wire on the unit. Who has a 15 amp recepticle wired with 10 gauge wire fed by a 30 amp breaker? Makes no sense to me.
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #16  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

Not only does it not make sense.......does not meet code either.
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #17  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

The full rated output for this unit is 2.5KVA for 220 V input. The primary current draw under full load is less than 15 Amps. This can occur for no longer than 5 seconds. With a 5 sec off time between applications. The secondary output voltage is only a few tenths of a volt at 6000Amps for the 12" tong. A few volts of loss in the power cord will not have a significant effect on the output or a concern for heating of the power cord. The #10 wire is dictated for assured circuit protection by the 30 Amp for anything plugged into the outlet.
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #18  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

TWINKLE_TOES, the unit that I install that has the sub panel in it does have a 220 volt 20 amp recepticle. I believe this recepticle is fed with 12 gauge wires but I am not sure on that. Do you think I would be safe in plugging this welder right into that recepticle? It is a 6-20r so the 6-15p will plug right into it.
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #19  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

I could not advise you to violate the installation instructions defined in the equipment manual. Nor would I advise you to follow them by the installation of a 6-20R receptacle protected by a 30 amp breaker. Nor installation of a 6-30P on the spot welder wired with#16 primary wiring.

What I did do was call the local Miller Service center and talked with a nice fellow named Randy. He recognized the inconsistancy, and provided the same double talk about duty cycle and variations in local electrical codes. When specifically asked "Can I plug this spot welder in to the normal and customary code compliant mating outlet to the one supplied with the spot welder" he responded with he could not endorse it. He did offer to get back with me. I called the Miller Service center @ 920-735-4505 and spoke with the "spot welder" expert named Doug. Doug initially identified the current demand of the spot welder as 30Amps, I pointed out this would then have a KVA demand at 220 volts of 6.6KVA and the welder was specified at 2.5KVA. Again I received the duty cycle code variation story. I asked Randy if he installed 6-30R outlets and 30 amp breakers for operation of the spot welder, answer "no, I use the plug on the welder and 20amp brekers and the 6-20P installed on the welder. Doug gave me the name of the responsible spot welder engineer, Al Novak @ 920-735-4898. I called Al was gone for the day.

I suspect the root of this problem lies with inrush current demand for transformers The inrush current can be many time operating depending on the the point in the cycle when power is applied. Maximum magnetization current occurs at 0 deg and 180 deg and minimum at 90 deg and 270 deg. 90Amp inrush for a 550VA transformer is not unusual. Your transformer is 2.5kVA (5 time larger)

With this kind of inrush a 20 Amp breaker may pop. The 30 Amp probably does not. The probability that power is applied at 0deg and 180 deg is much smaller than 90deg and 270deg.

If Miller requires a 30 amp breaker the welder should be fitted with a 6-30P and the input wire sized appropriately.

If it were me I would plug it in to my existing 20amp 6-20P and be happy with an occasional trip at power application. If it tripped in normal welding I would take it back to Miller. I would not wire the #16 wire into a 6-30P and plug it into a 30 Amp breaker. I will call the engineer Monday, maybe I am missing something here.

Hopefully Inspector 507 will drop in and provide a sanity check on this subject.
 
   / 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What's the diff? #20  
Re: 220 volts/230 volts/ 240 volts: What\'s the diff?

I dropped in..........and got my head spinning. Article 630 of the NEC® does mention something about overcurrent protection of 200%. Sorry guys, got to research this one.
 

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