Grid-tied solar

[pokerboy57]

I looked and looked and looked at solar because in Florida I pay .12 kwh. 2 items to consider. .
1. The cost of electricity will only go up. So it's .12/kwh today. I was told , but didn't not verify that you can expect a 6% annual cost increase year over year (averaged over a 10 year period). After ten years the cost is a little less than double the original cost. So the good news is , over time you will save more money.

But

This is the bad news. In Florida the solar model assumes peak electrical production of 5 1/2 hours per day. For those living farther north I assume that the average would be less. In conclision, I didn't find a financial model which showed a return on investment I was willing to accept.

 

[DarkBlack]

At 12 cents a kwh.. enjoy. People spend more monthly on a cell phone than that. That's just a little cheaper than what I have here. For the convience it provides, you can't beat it. I have hpe that the PV engineers will have a breakthrough soon, then it's time to buy.

 

[dave1949]

Yeah, like everyone, there is a ton of life happening...so that has to fit in to the myriad of other projects. May get done this fall... May wait til spring. Will update as happens. Actually still having trouble with the complete finished vision of the project. I'm afraid of it not enhancing the property. A gravel driveway can be done for a multi-million dollar estate, beautifully, or it can look like a cheap, messy, ignorant mistake. I don't think I'm ready, yet... so still trying to figure it out.

Talking with better half about storyland trip with kiddos...

One day at a time.

Does storyland take monopoly money?

I see. It's too hot today anyway for any serious outdoor work. It will come together in your head, give it time.
I had to check where Storyland is, never been there, but I'm sure they accept Monopoly Money in Live Free Or Die Land.
Have you been down/up the Kancamagus Hwy? Pretty road, free shallow stream along side that kids would probably like.

 

[madmax12]

I see. It's too hot today anyway for any serious outdoor work. It will come together in your head, give it time.
I had to check where Storyland is, never been there, but I'm sure they accept Monopoly Money in Live Free Or Die Land.
Have you been down/up the Kancamagus Hwy? Pretty road, free shallow stream along side that kids would probably like.

Been over that many times, but not with the family... Lots of Moose, in them thar hills... That might be a nice thing to do one of these days... the shallow stream. For us, Storyland is currently a one day/all day trip. I'm gonna mention the stream to the wife. If we don't do it that day, we'll put it on "the List." Thank you Dave. :thumbsup:

 

[dave1949]

I looked and looked and looked at solar because in Florida I pay .12 kwh. 2 items to consider. .
1. The cost of electricity will only go up. So it's .12/kwh today. I was told , but didn't not verify that you can expect a 6% annual cost increase year over year (averaged over a 10 year period). After ten years the cost is a little less than double the original cost. So the good news is , over time you will save more money.

But

This is the bad news. In Florida the solar model assumes peak electrical production of 5 1/2 hours per day. For those living farther north I assume that the average would be less. In conclision, I didn't find a financial model which showed a return on investment I was willing to accept.

You may not have a very accurate estimate if you multiplied 5.5 hours times some value for peak output.

You would need to estimate your system size based on your annual kWh needs and the available sunshine. A solar calculator does that combined estimate because you provide your location and target output, or play with system sizes until you get the target output. If you haven't tried a solar calculator, here is one: NREL: PVWatts - PVWatts Grid Data Calculator (Version 2)

Then you can have a reasonable idea of what it will cost because you are pricing a specific system capacity. Once you have that cost, you are able to evaluate the financial return side.

As meburdick pointed out, all places on earth receive equal hours of potential sunshine over a year's time. The local weather conditions are what determine how much of that potential you can make use of. Looking at a solar resource map, Florida can expect at least 25% more sunshine than where I live in Maine. For every dollar you spend on equal panels, you should get roughly 25% more output than I do. But, you still have to see that as worthwhile by your own judgement.

 

[locknut]

If I were not on the north side of a hill with high trees behind me owned by my neighbor, I'd have solar for sure. I don't worry about the payback so much. I'd like having it around, monitoring it, installing it, and whole deal. I am considering moving just to get a flatter place, with more land, and one more conducive to such projects.

My all electric home power bill only costs me around $65/month in the summer, and ~$120 in the winter, but I do burn some wood. And I continue to try to drive those numbers down. First best money for me would still be more insulation...but not nearly as fun as solar and I do like fun as much as the next guy. And life just keeps getting shorter.

Reading your post brought back some memories from the 80's.We bought a house that was total electric baseboard and cost a fortune to heat.Put in a woodstove.Then made coils of copper tubing in plaster of paris on each side of the stove,put an 80 gal preheat tank in front of the main water heater with a small pump to circulate the water.This was an open-loop system w/city water pressure.It worked great and provided all hot water needs all winter long.Then the solar tax credit came along and another interesting project.Built two 4x8 boxes for the roof with copper panels painted black and plumbed everything in using the pre-tank and small pump.I remember those panels producing 140 deg water in that 80 gal tank.A little labor intensive as the valves had to be attended to morning and night.I considered it fun back in those days.Built it all myself and it actually worked great.

Then one fateful day disaster struck.I forgot to open the valve and turn the pump on one summer morning.When I came home for lunch it was raining in the living room.I had installed a water heater pop-off valve on the top header but it didn't pop.Instead,the copper header blew and the water ran down the panel and through the PVC pipe that enclosed the tubing,and was stubbed off in the attic,so water went everywhere.Insurance covered the damage,but the solar was terminated.

 

[EE_Bota]

Reading your post brought back some memories from the 80's.We bought a house that was total electric baseboard and cost a fortune to heat.Put in a woodstove.Then made coils of copper tubing in plaster of paris on each side of the stove,put an 80 gal preheat tank in front of the main water heater with a small pump to circulate the water.This was an open-loop system w/city water pressure.It worked great and provided all hot water needs all winter long.Then the solar tax credit came along and another interesting project.Built two 4x8 boxes for the roof with copper panels painted black and plumbed everything in using the pre-tank and small pump.I remember those panels producing 140 deg water in that 80 gal tank.A little labor intensive as the valves had to be attended to morning and night.I considered it fun back in those days.Built it all myself and it actually worked great.

Then one fateful day disaster struck.I forgot to open the valve and turn the pump on one summer morning.When I came home for lunch it was raining in the living room.I had installed a water heater pop-off valve on the top header but it didn't pop.Instead,the copper header blew and the water ran down the panel and through the PVC pipe that enclosed the tubing,and was stubbed off in the attic,so water went everywhere.Insurance covered the damage,but the solar was terminated.

Yikes! It sounded really good until that pop off....well, didn't.

 

[Tig]

Dave, the installation and output of your system is very interesting. Thanks for posting.
After the ice storm of 98 it seemed like everyone in Ottawa bought generators on the insurance companies dime. Any chance they got, those things were fired up and buzzing away. Glad to move from that area.
I need to have power during the day, so I am planning some solar. Just enough to power my network and pump water once a day. My daytime energy costs are as high as .11/KW and then double it to account for delivery, line loss and debt retirement charges etc. I doubt that my modest plan will qualify for any grants and that's fine. The pay back that I want is not having to use the generator.
The more people that adopt this technology, the more it will become affordable. Someone has to lead and if it takes my tax dollars to make it happen, I'd rather the dollars go to individuals like you, as opposed to corporations.

 

[dave1949]

Dave, the installation and output of your system is very interesting. Thanks for posting.
After the ice storm of 98 it seemed like everyone in Ottawa bought generators on the insurance companies dime. Any chance they got, those things were fired up and buzzing away. Glad to move from that area.
I need to have power during the day, so I am planning some solar. Just enough to power my network and pump water once a day. My daytime energy costs are as high as .11/KW and then double it to account for delivery, line loss and debt retirement charges etc. I doubt that my modest plan will qualify for any grants and that's fine. The pay back that I want is not having to use the generator.
The more people that adopt this technology, the more it will become affordable. Someone has to lead and if it takes my tax dollars to make it happen, I'd rather the dollars go to individuals like you, as opposed to corporations.

Steve, scroll down to "Hybrid Solar Systems" on this page:
Grid-Tied, Off-Grid and Hybrid Solar Systems - Energy Informative

You will add a lot of cost and complexity to your grid-tied solar system to be able to draw power from it during an outage to avoid the use of a generator. I can see what you are trying to accomplish though.

I didn't research this technology after thinking about it. I have a generator already, so it seemed like paying to backup the backup so to speak. I don't know how long the minimal battery banks in the some of the hybrids would provide power during an outage. It is hard on the lead-acid batteries to draw them down below a certain level, and you would need a reasonably sunny day after an overnight outage to recharge the batteries and provide power for your uses at the same time, especially for a smaller capacity system.

Your utility probably has the final say over the inverter you choose, mine does. They want to be assured it automatically disconnects when power is down for lineman safety. I think they work from a list of inverters they trust, if an inverter is not on their "pre-approved" list they can/probably will demand a live test.

So, whatever type of system you choose, check early-on if that is going to pass muster without over-complicating things. It would be a booger to have one installed, then fail the test. You could be in the middle between the utility saying we don't accept it, and the manufacturer who says there is nothing wrong with it.

If you can work through all that, I think your use concept is a great one and would appeal to many. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[aczlan]

Your utility probably has the final say over the inverter you choose, mine does. They want to be assured it automatically disconnects when power is down for lineman safety. I think they work from a list of inverters they trust, if an inverter is not on their "pre-approved" list they can/probably will demand a live test.

If you have the following setup: Solar Panels > Inverter > Breaker Panel > Transfer Switch > Meter
You could run something like a little Honda Inverter generator and/or a separate battery bank/inverter as the second power source and thus use their "approved" inverter AND get more bang for your buck (in the daytime) with backup power.

Aaron Z