Grid-tied solar

   / Grid-tied solar #431  
Redneck in training said:
The issue I have with the utility is that before I built my system they send me an example of connection agreement describing net metering with "banking". After I build my system they back pedaled but let me keep my heating rate for rest of the last heating season. Now they canceled it for the future.
I would be happy if I could al least offset my own consumption and they could keep the excess. What irks me is that they pay me 3.5 cent/kWh and if a cloud goes over the sun they immediately sell it back to me for 11.5 cent kWh.
They don't like zero electric bill. I understand that but they would get my excess energy that they can sell with good profit.
My next purchase will be an electric plug in car. It will eliminate most of the energy excess and save me about 300/month on fuel charges. Also as the new energy storage devices such "ultra capacitors" became available I might invest in an energy storage system.
Anyway solar is going to stay and they will have to learn to profit from it.
To put my attitude in a perspective:
People buy expensive cars and nobody ask how much money they will make.
My wife spends more money for gardening that we spend on loan financing the PV.
CD in the bank earn interst so meager it is not worth much. Our investment in PV saves at least half of our elctric bill.
We can keep our house ice cold all day without a guilt that we polute air.
It was fun project to build and we enjoy having the PV.
As it financially turned out is somewhat disappointing but in fact I don't have much to complain about.

FWIW, I agree with your assessment of the utility treating you unfairly. They are unjust in their dealings with you. What you make for them, at no cost to them, should be sold to you at same price they paid you.

I think you are taking the high road. You make lemonade from lemons.

I think you set a good example of living honorably. I think the practices of the utility will be found wanting, were they judged justly. Perhaps someday they will be called to account. Stand tall.
 
   / Grid-tied solar
  • Thread Starter
#432  
You have a very interesting perspective.

The poor aren't installing solar panels. The rich are. We can't pay legitimate debts. Not subsidizing the rich and the solar modifications to save them, individually, money, allows us to just be less in debt. Maine and the US are broke.

The governor is good at math. The rail line is necessary for commerce for all. Solar panels on your house are good for just you. No one is blocking anyone from buying their own solar panels. So, no interference, no loss of freedom.

Now if I want the state to subsidize my gun purchase, where do you stand on that?


Solar panels benefit everyone regardless of whose roof they are on. Every kilowatt produced by solar or wind reduces the load on generators that burn fossil fuels such as oil, natural gas and coal. This effect will continue to grow as more systems are installed and the grid operators (ISO New England in most of Maine) refine the forecasting techniques needed to combine scheduled (traditional sources) and unscheduled (solar and wind) production methods.

There is already evidence that solar systems are shaving a bit off of peak summer loads. With enough solar systems installed, the reduced peak loads on the gird curtail the need to build more capacity and more distribution capacity, which will create cost reductions to all end users on the grid. Solar power is better able to accomplish this than wind power, and easier to predict on a day to day, hour by hour basis.

Buying power from Hydro Quebec and importing it into Maine will never reduce grid capacity requirements. And it will always be a bargaining chip in what ever other agreements, such as trans-border labor and timber sales, Maine, Quebec and the Maritimes enter into. Solar and wind power are 100% native fuel sources with no price tag or strings attached--forever.

Wind power in Maine suffers from a lack of grid connectivity to maximize its implementation. If that grid connectivity were built, it would employ local people and represent investments in local communities. The environmental and aesthetic issues surrounding wind power should be considered in comparison to the alternative damages we will certainly incur by increased reliance on carbon-based fuels, or the economic pressures and exported Maine wealth that will come with Hydro Quebec power.

When you look at the big picture, it makes sense to subsidize solar energy, and perhaps to a lesser extent, wind energy. My system was planned and installed by Maine people with families to support, working for a Maine company. The inverter is a joint engineering project between a Mass. company and a German firm. The panels came from Canadian Solar. None of those suppliers, with the possible exception of Mass. :laughing:, are our enemies.

The State of Maine is not an end-point business like Marden's. A governor needs to look to the present and the future. If we allow Maine's energy infrastructure to deteriorate, rely on fossil fuels and foreign sources, we will not look very good to companies looking for a home. Expanding natural gas use in Maine, aside from contributing to climate change, will export local wealth out-of-state with every gas bill. The more you send away, the less you have locally for jobs, schools and roads. It's that simple.

The costs of limiting the damage of climate change already factor into many decisions. That influence is only going to become stronger in the coming decades which will mean paying steeper and steeper prices for carbon fuels. There is no economic sense, let alone sanity, in being caught on the wrong side of that trend.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #433  
dave1949 said:
Solar panels benefit everyone regardless of whose roof they are on. Every kilowatt produced by solar or wind reduces the load on generators that burn fossil fuels such as oil, natural gas and coal. This effect will continue to grow as more systems are installed and the grid operators (ISO New England in most of Maine) refine the forecasting techniques needed to combine scheduled (traditional sources) and unscheduled (solar and wind) production methods.

There is already evidence that solar systems are shaving a bit off of peak summer loads. With enough solar systems installed, the reduced peak loads on the gird curtail the need to build more capacity and more distribution capacity, which will create cost reductions to all end users on the grid. Solar power is better able to accomplish this than wind power, and easier to predict on a day to day, hour by hour basis.

Buying power from Hydro Quebec and importing it into Maine will never reduce grid capacity requirements. And it will always be a bargaining chip in what ever other agreements, such as trans-border labor and timber sales, Maine, Quebec and the Maritimes enter into. Solar and wind power are 100% native fuel sources with no price tag or strings attached--forever.

Wind power in Maine suffers from a lack of grid connectivity to maximize its implementation. If that grid connectivity were built, it would employ local people and represent investments in local communities. The environmental and aesthetic issues surrounding wind power should be considered in comparison to the alternative damages we will certainly incur by increased reliance on carbon-based fuels, or the economic pressures and exported Maine wealth that will come with Hydro Quebec power.

When you look at the big picture, it makes sense to subsidize solar energy, and perhaps to a lesser extent, wind energy. My system was planned and installed by Maine people with families to support, working for a Maine company. The inverter is a joint engineering project between a Mass. company and a German firm. The panels came from Canadian Solar. None of those suppliers, with the possible exception of Mass. :laughing:, are our enemies.

The State of Maine is not an end-point business like Marden's. A governor needs to look to the present and the future. If we allow Maine's energy infrastructure to deteriorate, rely on fossil fuels and foreign sources, we will not look very good to companies looking for a home. Expanding natural gas use in Maine, aside from contributing to climate change, will export local wealth out-of-state with every gas bill. The more you send away, the less you have locally for jobs, schools and roads. It's that simple.

The costs of limiting the damage of climate change already factor into many decisions. That influence is only going to become stronger in the coming decades which will mean paying steeper and steeper prices for carbon fuels. There is no economic sense, let alone sanity, in being caught on the wrong side of that trend.

I am for solar and wind power. I am less interested in subsidies.

Global warming climate change is an irrelevant Al Gore Michael Moore communist totalitarian United Nations sham.

Solar and wind power are wise on their own.

I think the solar project you are doing is wisdom. I think some of your beliefs behind it are not. I think you are intelligent and worthy of great respect. So is the governor.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #434  
I am for solar and wind power. I am less interested in subsidies.

Global warming climate change is an irrelevant Al Gore Michael Moore communist totalitarian United Nations sham.

Solar and wind power are wise on their own.

I think the solar project you are doing is wisdom. I think some of your beliefs behind it are not. I think you are intelligent and worthy of great respect. So is the governor.

Me too.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #435  
In Canada, we dont have subsidies for solar or wind power. However, the hydro company will enter into a contract to buy your excess power for $0.60 - $0.80 per kw. (assuming you qualify) for 20 years. This gives the average installation, a payback around 7 - 10 years. As a result, most people just sell to the utility vs try to achieve net zero.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #436  
The issue I have with the utility is that before I built my system they send me an example of connection agreement describing net metering with "banking". After I build my system they back pedaled but let me keep my heating rate for rest of the last heating season. Now they canceled it for the future.
I would be happy if I could al least offset my own consumption and they could keep the excess. What irks me is that they pay me 3.5 cent/kWh and if a cloud goes over the sun they immediately sell it back to me for 11.5 cent kWh.
They don't like zero electric bill. I understand that but they would get my excess energy that they can sell with good profit.
My next purchase will be an electric plug in car. It will eliminate most of the energy excess and save me about 300/month on fuel charges. Also as the new energy storage devices such "ultra capacitors" became available I might invest in an energy storage system.
Anyway solar is going to stay and they will have to learn to profit from it.
To put my attitude in a perspective:
People buy expensive cars and nobody ask how much money they will make.
My wife spends more money for gardening that we spend on loan financing the PV.
CD in the bank earn interst so meager it is not worth much. Our investment in PV saves at least half of our elctric bill.
We can keep our house ice cold all day without a guilt that we polute air.
It was fun project to build and we enjoy having the PV.
As it financially turned out is somewhat disappointing but in fact I don't have much to complain about.

I was thinking on the storage problem one day (don't much like batteries) and figured, why not use water if you have a source nearby? Use your excess electricity to pump water to a storage container up high. When the solar is not producing, let the water back down running a generator to make power from the water. I am sure it would not be real efficient, but wonder if it would pay off with the large difference you have in your solar power going to the utility and the power you get from them when you need it...
 
   / Grid-tied solar #437  
The issue I have with the utility is that before I built my system they send me an example of connection agreement describing net metering with "banking". After I build my system they back pedaled but let me keep my heating rate for rest of the last heating season. Now they canceled it for the future.
I would be happy if I could al least offset my own consumption and they could keep the excess. What irks me is that they pay me 3.5 cent/kWh and if a cloud goes over the sun they immediately sell it back to me for 11.5 cent kWh.
They don't like zero electric bill. I understand that but they would get my excess energy that they can sell with good profit.
My next purchase will be an electric plug in car. It will eliminate most of the energy excess and save me about 300/month on fuel charges. Also as the new energy storage devices such "ultra capacitors" became available I might invest in an energy storage system.
Anyway solar is going to stay and they will have to learn to profit from it.
To put my attitude in a perspective:
People buy expensive cars and nobody ask how much money they will make.
My wife spends more money for gardening that we spend on loan financing the PV.
CD in the bank earn interst so meager it is not worth much. Our investment in PV saves at least half of our elctric bill.
We can keep our house ice cold all day without a guilt that we polute air.
It was fun project to build and we enjoy having the PV.
As it financially turned out is somewhat disappointing but in fact I don't have much to complain about.

I was thinking on the storage problem one day (don't much like batteries) and figured, why not use water if you have a source nearby? Use your excess electricity to pump water to a storage container up high. When the solar is not producing, let the water back down running a generator to make power from the water. I am sure it would not be real efficient, but wonder if it would pay off with the large difference you have in your solar power going to the utility and the power you get from them when you need it...
 
   / Grid-tied solar
  • Thread Starter
#438  
I am for solar and wind power. I am less interested in subsidies.

Global warming climate change is an irrelevant Al Gore Michael Moore communist totalitarian United Nations sham.

Solar and wind power are wise on their own.

I think the solar project you are doing is wisdom. I think some of your beliefs behind it are not. I think you are intelligent and worthy of great respect. So is the governor.


It is a logical fallacy to base your opinion on climate to your feelings about Al Gore or the UN. If you are willing to do the reading, there are climate change indicators and articles about them all over the place. We will never come to agreement about that, so it isn't really worth discussing.

If you remove the climate change aspects from the picture, I think it is still possible to justify supporting alternative energies, especially those which we can produce here. Most of Maine has good solar potential.

The benefits to the local economy through retained wealth, along with the public health benefits of reducing pollution from coal, oil and gas are worth quite a bit in and of themselves. Of course, we don't use a lot of coal and oil for power generation as it is, and we cannot keep the upwind pollution away. Fracking is not happening in our backyards either.

Our health and environmental quality is damaged by those upwind out-of-state generating sources, which means the only way to remove or limit that damage is through federal actions. The New England states banded together to try to bring pressure at the federal level and through the courts. The governor pulled Maine out of that effort. It makes no sense. Our lakes all have fish with dangerous mercury levels from coal power plants, our forests are impacted by acid rain, our asthma rates are high, and our economy relies heavily on tourism. People aren't going to take vacations in areas with degraded environments.

We also have local pollution problems when the beaches in southern Maine test too high for coli-form bacteria. We have local idiocy issues as well such as the fellow who fought against limits on the use of lead fishing tackle because "he fought for his country and deserves the right to go fishing." Loons are a symbol the of wild and are iconic in Maine. Lead tackle kills loons. There are workable alternative tackle materials and lead poisoning of wetland wildlife has long been understood and documented.

As to subsidies, and taking the train as an example, if Maine subsidizes that operation we are subsidizing oil shipments for Irving along with the mills that depend on the train service. Will the state levy a surcharge on Irving oil shipments that the mills do not pay, to avoid subsidizing oil? I doubt it.

Much of the state subsidy I received for my solar system transferred tax revenue directly to local working families. Subsidies don't get much better than that if they are to exist. The problem with complaining about one subsidy or another is that there are so many of them, and not all are very evident. If we could truly get rid of all of them, you would have a level playing field, and that is a game I don't think oil and coal companies want to play. They will lose and they know it. We could not afford a gallon of fuel or a bucket of coal if it were sold at its true total cost to society.

I take it as a given that subsidies are not going away. There will be continual battles over who gets the most, and to what benefit or purpose they actually serve.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #439  
I was thinking on the storage problem one day (don't much like batteries) and figured, why not use water if you have a source nearby? Use your excess electricity to pump water to a storage container up high. When the solar is not producing, let the water back down running a generator to make power from the water. I am sure it would not be real efficient, but wonder if it would pay off with the large difference you have in your solar power going to the utility and the power you get from them when you need it...

I have excellent location for such thing. Systems like that are used on large scale all over the world. Many in the USA. But systems alike that are relatively complex, expensive and require maintenance.

I have another idea. We AC and heat our house with geothermal heat pump. It would be quite easy to install large tank that could be heated or cooled when the sun is shining and the used the accumulated energy to heat the house. Similarly when the tank is cold I could sink energy in when AC is in operation. Only problem is that the heat pump uses only 4.5kW but my peak excess might be even three times as large. Right now I am working the numbers before I put the effort in building it.
 
   / Grid-tied solar #440  
dave1949 said:
It is a logical fallacy to base your opinion on climate to your feelings about Al Gore or the UN. If you are willing to do the reading, there are climate change indicators and articles about them all over the place. We will never come to agreement about that, so it isn't really worth discussing.

If you remove the climate change aspects from the picture, I think it is still possible to justify supporting alternative energies, especially those which we can produce here. Most of Maine has good solar potential.

The benefits to the local economy through retained wealth, along with the public health benefits of reducing pollution from coal, oil and gas are worth quite a bit in and of themselves. Of course, we don't use a lot of coal and oil for power generation as it is, and we cannot keep the upwind pollution away. Fracking is not happening in our backyards either.

Our health and environmental quality is damaged by those upwind out-of-state generating sources, which means the only way to remove or limit that damage is through federal actions. The New England states banded together to try to bring pressure at the federal level and through the courts. The governor pulled Maine out of that effort. It makes no sense. Our lakes all have fish with dangerous mercury levels from coal power plants, our forests are impacted by acid rain, our asthma rates are high, and our economy relies heavily on tourism. People aren't going to take vacations in areas with degraded environments.

We also have local pollution problems when the beaches in southern Maine test too high for coli-form bacteria. We have local idiocy issues as well such as the fellow who fought against limits on the use of lead fishing tackle because "he fought for his country and deserves the right to go fishing." Loons are a symbol the of wild and are iconic in Maine. Lead tackle kills loons. There are workable alternative tackle materials and lead poisoning of wetland wildlife has long been understood and documented.

As to subsidies, and taking the train as an example, if Maine subsidizes that operation we are subsidizing oil shipments for Irving along with the mills that depend on the train service. Will the state levy a surcharge on Irving oil shipments that the mills do not pay, to avoid subsidizing oil? I doubt it.

Much of the state subsidy I received for my solar system transferred tax revenue directly to local working families. Subsidies don't get much better than that if they are to exist. The problem with complaining about one subsidy or another is that there are so many of them, and not all are very evident. If we could truly get rid of all of them, you would have a level playing field, and that is a game I don't think oil and coal companies want to play. They will lose and they know it. We could not afford a gallon of fuel or a bucket of coal if it were sold at its true total cost to society.

I take it as a given that subsidies are not going away. There will be continual battles over who gets the most, and to what benefit or purpose they actually serve.

I have no ill will toward you. I respect your effort and hard work.

Your perspective of my view as a logical fallacy is a strawman argument. You assume too much. The suggestions you made to me of reading more can be applied in my argument to you. But, as you said, you have your view and I have mine. I consider my view to be evidence based, as do you. Aren't most perspectives that way? Economics, politics, science, faith, literature, art, etc...

Subsidies are tricky. I don't have all the answers. The truely disabled should be subsidized. The poor should be helped, trained, then de-subsidized.

We may agree with having less subsidies all around. I'm not sure.
 
 
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