Scope problem

[N80]

I have a problem, and maybe an interesting story too. Here goes:

My 19 year old daughter has been deer hunting with me the last few years and we've had good success...a couple of small bucks and 4 really nice 8 pointers in three years. I've loved every minute of it. She shoots a petite little Remington Model 7 in .308 with an old 4x Leupold scope. She has not missed yet but we've had the discipline to take only 'money' shots.

Well, when I got all my Dad's guns and gun stuff (he has Alzheimers) there was a 4x Zeiss scope. I've had an identical one for a long time (he bought them at the same time) and it has been a superb scope. So I get to thinking that this Zeiss would be great on her gun. I ask her if she wanted me to change it and she was a little hesitant but she said okay if I could put the other one back if she didn't like it. So on goes the Zeiss and off to my cabin to sight it in. Well, first few shots at 50 yards dial in fairly well. At 100 they start getting weird and do not seem to be responding to changes in elevation adjustments. Windage stays dead center. So I give up and quit adjusting and just take 4 consecutive shots. Each shot stayed centered but climbed about 2 inches every time...right off the paper.

Things I know:
1) The gun shot well with the previous scope. So it isn't the gun.
2) I used the same Millet base (never tool it off) with the Zeiss and rings, bases, etc all nice and tight so I don't think it was the mounting.
3) I'm an average shot at best. But I'd shot several other guns that day on a nice bench and rests with excellent results. So I don't think it was me.
4) I had put about 10 rounds through the gun before the last 4 in a fairly short period of time so it was getting hot.
5) I know little about the scope except that it wasn't on a gun and I seem to recall it going back to Zeiss with a problem years ago.

So my problem is: Is it the scope? If so, how can I test it and find out? Or could it possibly shoot that bad just from a hot barrel?

The side story: I've got to get her old scope back on it and sighted in and I think when she finds out she is going to think I've messed with her gun's mojo....and I have, I guess. If her next shot is a miss then I will be in the dog house! I sure hope it is a hit!

Moral of the story for me: Don't mess with a gun that is shooting well....no matter what.

 

[texasjohn]

I understand your story...don't have an answer for you. However, will tell you my story and see if you have the answer.
All thru my high school years I shot my uncle's browning 264 magnum with scope on it. So did my two sons during their high school years. Uncle has passed away and his widow has kept gun in cabinet with no one shooting it. It always was a tack driver for each of us. 95% of the shots were in the head. We never messed with it or sighted it in...just picked it up and a box of 20 shells lasted many hunting seasons since a shot was a deer on the ground.

This season, one of my sons, an excellent shot, following your lesson, picked it up, didn't mess with it, used it and missed two shots . So we took it to the range.

At 25 yards, .25 inch to left, didn't worry about height
at 50 yards, .25 inch to left so adjusted to right, didn't worry about height
at 75 yards, windage is perfect, but several shots scattered multiple inches high or low
at 100 yards, windage is dandy, but letting barrel cool for 5 minutes between shots, they continued to scatter over a foot away from the point of aim. some high, some low, no patterning. 5 shots gave these results. One of the shots I drilled the bulls eye, but that was the only shot that I thought was a tad above the target. Simply unreliable.

The above is from a rock solid rest using bags and for two different shooters, using ammo from the same box, Remington, 1 year old.

My conclusion was that the gun or the scope is messed up now and I can't figure out which...and ammo for it is now about $60 for a box of 20, so kinda expensive to experiment with.

Anyway, son moved to one of our other guns and got a deer next shot.

 

[EE_Bota]

I am a novice with scopes, and I have had my issues. But one thing that needs to be remembered is that on some/many/most/all (not sure) scopes, it is actually a screw that is controlling the windage and elevation adjustments ...so sometimes it is possible to turn one of the screws until the actual mechanisms disengages from the screw. When that happens the shots may be close, but will be scattered because the internal mechanism moves to various places with each recoil.

I have not tried this, but I read somewhere that you can hold a mirror in front of the far lens and look through the scope and tell if the scope is adjusted way off center by how the reticule looks. A man could then adjust the scope back to center, remove and then remount the scope to see if the remounting made enough difference to where the screws can be adjusted enough to be on target without running back off the screw again.

I hope what I wrote is understandable. I can't swear it is right, since I am a novice.

 

[N80]

John, I also sighted in a Remington Model 7 7mm-08 that had the other Zeiss on it. First two shots at about 75 yards 2" high, 2" to the right and nearly in the same hole. Adjust scope 2" down and 2" to the left, bulls eye, next two shots nearly in the same hole. I only mention that to say that when things go right, I understand them. When things go wrong sighting in a rifle it gets real frustrating and can get real expensive with most basic factory loads costing a dollar a shot and I'm terrible at sorting out the problem. And if this weren't my daughter's 'lucky' rifle I'd just put it in the closet for a while. I've got other great guns for her to shoot....like the identical, but newer and nicer 7mm-08, but she wants 'her' gun.

 

[texasjohn]

EE_Bota...that makes sense....hmm...guess that it might be worth getting a laser bore sight instead of running lots of ammo thru at multiple $$$ per shot...interesting.....hadn't thought of it having a "screw loose"...makes sense, could happen.

 

[N80]

I wonder how good those laser bore sights are? Most of the time I can bore sight by eye and get close enough to sight the gun in in just a few rounds. What I'd really like to know is how do I know if this scope is defective with it off the rifle?

 

[EE_Bota]

I've got two of the sighters that look like bullets that you put into the bore, and so far they have worked fine. I hear that the batteries die pretty quickly, so it is a bit of a race to get the batteries in, the bullet shaped laser into the chamber, do your business, and then get the sighter back out. When using them, you ease the bolt closed, but push it firmly since they do need to properly occupy the chamber. But when done, they are not extractable by the bolt, so I drop a section of clean out rod down the barrel and it taps the laser loose.

When I zero'd at about 30 yards, I could get my scope turrets turned in quickly. But when I decided to do it again, same day, but at 100 yards, I seemed to encounter resistance with my windage adjustment, so I stopped right there to regroup. I will say I could see the laser dot quite clearly with my Nikon scope even at 100 yards. It was close to dusk, and I was shining it on a distant telephone pole.

I have the sighter for the .223/5.56 and the 7.62x39. I think you can get them for most any round size except those that are tiny tip to tip such as a .22LR. Fortunately, tiny rounds are dirt cheap, so no one would mind shooting enough rounds to sight in.

I have not tried the mirror trick yet to put the scope back to neutral. But the idea was...when I am encountering resistance in my windage adjustment, does that actually mean I am out? The clicks available in my scope are published, so if I get it back to neutral, I can repeat the sighting exercise while keeping count of the clicks. If I'm out, I must remount the scope somehow. To save time, I will actually count the clicks to get back to neutral, and I should know if I ran out. My brother knows more, and he said he doubts I am out. Usually in a bad mounting, it is more likely you will run out of elevation clicks, or so it would seem. Still, the number of clicks I was using seemed oddly high.

 

[texasjohn]

hmmm...went to Deal Extreme and found this siter New 0.22 to 0.50 Waterproof / Shockproof Laser Bore Sight - Black (3 x AG13) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme

Seems to be a device that you choose an adapter, screw it on the end, stick into muzzle and insert until cone centers the laser in the end of the muzzle, then press a button when ready to turn on.

I can't decide, will have to do more reading, if this technique is as accurate as the sighter in a bullet shape.

It's attractive because I have things to sight in from 22, to 264 magnum, 270 and 30 30...so one sighter would do for all, if it is accurate enough

Well, looked at Cabella's version http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Shooting-Accessories/Sighting-In/Boresighters|/pc/104792580/c/104769180/sc/104570280/i/103924980/Cabelas-Laser-Boresighter/1172354.uts?WTz_l=DirectLoad%3Bcat103924980 and it gets some poor reviews...for $50...so, I dunno..

 

[EE_Bota]

hmmm...went to Deal Extreme and found this siter New 0.22 to 0.50 Waterproof / Shockproof Laser Bore Sight - Black (3 x AG13) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme

Seems to be a device that you choose an adapter, screw it on the end, stick into muzzle and insert until cone centers the laser in the end of the muzzle, then press a button when ready to turn on.

I can't decide, will have to do more reading, if this technique is as accurate as the sighter in a bullet shape.

It's attractive because I have things to sight in from 22, to 264 magnum, 270 and 30 30...so one sighter would do for all, it it is accurate enough

I was also interested in that type, and similar types that go in the muzzle. When I read the reviews, some had success, and others have trouble. You never know anything about the people reporting, etc, but I look for themes in trouble reports.

I read bad reviews on the in chamber types to, so its truly a mixed bag. But many of them were very inexpensive, so there is little to lose. Really, nearly all types and brands are reasonably priced, so its not a great risk either way. Most all of them will get you "on the paper" for your fine tuning with actual shots.

 

[EddieWalker]

Is it a bolt action rifle? Can you look down the barrel? On mine, I like to site the barrel on the target by looking down the barrel and getting it lined up with the target. It doesn't have to be very far, just something bright that you can see when looking through the barrel. On my semi auto Ruger 10-22 I cut a piece of mirror to look through the barrel. Once I get the barrel lined up with the target, I adjust the scope. The barrel should not move during this process. It needs to always stay on the target. You will see the scope move as you adjust it. If it doesn't move, you know there is something wrong with the scope. After you get it where you want it, tap the scope on the side a few times lightly and see if anything changes. I had a Burris scope do this on me and had to send it back to the factory for repairs. It would line up, but go off with each shot so my second shot was always different.

If you didn't change anything else, always look at what you did change.

Eddie