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  1. #11
    Elite Member nybirdman's Avatar
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by N80 View Post
    Thanks guys. I don't think it is an FMJ. These were mixed in with some of my Dad's stuff and I don't know why he'd have owned FMJ bullets. Plus, at the tip the copper has cut grooves (which don't show up well in the photo) for expansion.

    nybirdman, when you say too much destruction do you mean the bullets were coming apart or too much damage to the deer?
    My experience with that load on deer,of course dead deer but tremendous loss of meat on a shoulder shot.I handload Nosler partition 120/115 gr.for the 25/06 with excellent results .

  2. #12
    Super Member N80's Avatar
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by wrooster View Post

    Note that OTM is *not* classed as a hollow-point projectile. The aperture left by the bottom-up copper jacket drawing process is generally not large enough to induce "flower petaling" as would occur in a true JHP projectile. Therefore, the wounding mechanism for OTM is very much like any high velocity FMJ projectile: transient yawing followed by fragmentation typically initiated at the cannelure.

    Wrooster
    Okay, so maybe just right for coyotes.
    George
    South Carolina

    The size of government is inversely proprotional to the degree of freedom it affords.

    "What is truth?" Pontius Pilate

  3. #13
    Silver Member
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    [QUOTE=N80;3102285]No, its been sitting in the factory plastic bullet holder (minus the box) for years. [QUOTE]

    That would be plenty to do that damage to that round.

    Yes it would be great yot medicine or any thin animals up to the 100ish pound range. I've taken a few caribu with the .308 162 federal match ammo and they did great, all about placement.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by N80 View Post
    Okay, so maybe just right for coyotes.
    As noted prior, bullet yaw followed by fragmentation is the primary wounding mechanism for most all high velocity FMJ projectiles -- including the 5.56mm NATO type 62gr M855 used in .mil M16's and M4's. So, it works on more than just coyotes...

    Wrooster

  5. #15
    Super Star Member
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    It could be a match round or a hunting round, but I can't tell from the photo. The Match King bullets I used in competition are not that much different weight wise or visually with the Game King bullets I have used. I know both shoot the same with my loads.

    A visit to a gun store with a good supply of reloading components and/or commercial rounds might help ID the round.

    Later,
    Dan

  6. #16
    Super Member
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    From what I read years ago, match bullets have thinner jackets and don not hold up/expand like hunting bullets. They tend to fragment and wound, partly from uncontrolled expansion and then fragmentation. So you wind up with a bad wound instead of a clean kill.

    Trying to remember, I think it was discussed in my first Speer book, and in Ken Waters "Pet Loads".

    Quote Originally Posted by N80 View Post
    nybirdman, when you say too much destruction do you mean the bullets were coming apart or too much damage to the deer?
    RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

  7. #17
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertN View Post
    From what I read years ago, match bullets have thinner jackets and don not hold up/expand like hunting bullets. They tend to fragment and wound, partly from uncontrolled expansion and then fragmentation. So you wind up with a bad wound instead of a clean kill.
    I'm having trouble differentiating between a "bad wound" and a "clean kill".

    Assuming the same shot placement, there are two mechanisms which lead to death: 1) hypovolemia link leading to exsanguination link leading to cerebral anoxia link of the brain, and 2) disruption or termination of central nervous system (CNS) function such that autonomous functions (breathing, etc) cease.

    In layman's terms, #1 above is "bleeding out", typically from a COM (center of mass) strike, and #2 is a "head shot".

    A COM hit generally does not produce "instant death" as -- depending on an individual's physiology and many other factors -- semi-normal functioning is possible for anywhere from 15 seconds to 5 minutes even with traumatic injury within the thoracic triangle (draw a triangle between your nipples and the top of your breast plate at the base of your neck -- if you take a round in that area you got yourself a major problem which is typically not solvable "in the field"). Outside of the thoracic triangle, the outcome varies widely.

    A proper head shot, assuming the medulla link is stuck and/or significantly damaged by overpressure, is "lights out". All motor function ceases and death is, from a physiological perspective, instantaneous. Of course not all head shots result in death; the number of people (and animals) struck in the head but still walking around today is a fair percentage.

    Back on topic, in terms of hunting -- head shots on game such as deer could be considered "risky" and even inhumane. The target is small and constantly swiveling around. A poor shot could result in significant damage to the animal's jaw, for example. Unless successfully tracked and put down, the animal will slowly starve to death over the course of a few weeks. For this reason, "COM" on game animals is advised -- through front shoulder and into vital organs for example.

    Accordingly, there is no "lights out" with this approach. Taking the animal rapidly and without extensive tracking depends on maximizing the damage withing the equivalent of the thoracic triangle -- meaning heart and lungs, primarily. Whatever projectile maximizes damage in this area will minimize the time until cessation of effective cardiovascular function.

    Wrooster

  8. #18
    Super Member N80's Avatar
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    There can be several differences between a bad wound and a clean kill. In terms of warfare a bad wound is more effective than a clean kill since it can occupy ancillary troops and resources. A less 'bad' wound can accomplish the same thing. So, in efforts to keep warfare less barbaric there are 'rules' that try to minimize bad wounds while still attempting to minimize loss of life at the same time. That's why hunting bullets and designed fragmentation bullets are generally not kosher.

    From a hunting perspective a bad wound can mean a lethal wound but one that damages too much meat.

    There is a third mechanism of death that technically does not occur due to hypovolemia or exsanguination but still results in immediate cerebral anoxia and that is 'pump failure' which is essentially a direct heart shot. Yes, hypovolemia and exsanguination occur, but when the heart does not beat, the brain stops functioning fast, even before hypovolemia occurs. In other words, the volume of blood within the vascular system is not severely depleted, it just isn't going anywhere because the heart is either gone or immediately stops beating due to shock wave trauma. This is splitting hairs but I think it accounts for a lot of the "COM" shots that result in an animal falling in its tracks with hardly even a kick, effectively a lights out shot. The type of shot we all prefer but, as mentioned, "COM" do not always result in.

    I do not take head or neck shots for the very reasons cited above. Sure, they preserve more meat but I'm not starving or hungry enough to risk jaw, esophagus or trachea shots that are not immediately lethal. It is inhumane and unnecessary in my book.
    George
    South Carolina

    The size of government is inversely proprotional to the degree of freedom it affords.

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  9. #19
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    Looks to me as a FMJ with the tip filed back and an X made in the tip.
    I know that some poorer hunters in my area did that to create their own 'soft nose' ammo.
    That was back in the '50's when surplus ammo was real cheap compared to hunting ammo.

  10. #20
    Super Member N80's Avatar
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    Default Re: What kind of bullet is this?

    After accessing Remington's web site, which as mentioned is just awfully slow and clunky, I do believe this is their 'varmint' hollow point round.
    George
    South Carolina

    The size of government is inversely proprotional to the degree of freedom it affords.

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