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  1. #1501
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    From my bro recently....
    In addition to the cold and warm phases, the new climate curve also exhibits
    a phenomenon that was not expected in this form. For the first time,
    researchers have now been able to use the data derived from tree-rings to
    precisely calculate a much longer-term cooling trend that has been playing
    out over the past 2,000 years. Their findings demonstrate that this trend
    involves a cooling of -0.3°C per millennium due to gradual changes to the
    position of the sun and an increase in the distance between the Earth and
    the sun.

    "This figure we calculated may not seem particularly significant," says
    Esper, "however, it is also not negligible when compared to global warming,
    which up to now has been less than 1°C. Our results suggest that the
    large-scale climate reconstruction shown by the Intergovernmental Panel on
    Climate Change (IPCC) likely underestimate this long-term cooling trend over
    the past few millennia."



    But read the whole thing... a honest report for once...

    Climate in northern Europe reconstructed for the past 2,000 years: Cooling trend calculated precisely for the first time

  2. #1502
    Elite Member Rob-D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by toppop52 View Post
    How does that negate what was happening in Iceland and Greenland? I totally fail to see the logic. Just because some areas had one thing at a certain point while others had the opposite within a reasonable time, does not prove one over the other.
    I mean any person that claims others are not open minded should at least wonder when the very people that started AGW say things like;
    Again, let me restate my position on GW/CC. I'm not especially concerned whether it is provable or not. In fact I've said before here that to know 100% for sure we would need a control group, that is we would need to see the planet simultaneously with and without man's influence. This, of course, is not possible.
    So, is the Alaskan town's perma-frost melting because of CC or not? We can make hypothesis and we can collect data but we can not be 100% sure, although there are people who believe it is occurring.
    My view is that we address world pollution which is occurring and causing devastating damage to this planet. We could debate GW until our ears fall off and let's say we proved it 100%, what would we have to do next? We would have to address the pollution that is causing it. So let's cut to the chase and work on our planet. Now, who doesn't want to hear that? Do you think the oil companies and Massey Coal want to change the way they do business? I don't.
    Deciding whether GW exists is not what is happening here, what is happening here is that we don't want to make changes to our messy life style. If we can cast a shadow on CC than we can go on life as usual and that is exactly what corporate energy wants. That's why the API spends big bucks lobbying congress. That's why we have unscrubed coal stacks acidifying our oceans.

    You're proud to be from the south? Well how do you feel about Massey Industries raping the people and land of WV? One of the poorest states and one of the wealthiest companies. Don Blankenship walked away with lots of millions of dollars, the people of WV walked away with higher cancer rates.

    Rob

  3. #1503
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    On a side not the hottest temperature ever recorded was in the 1920's (1922 I believe) and has not been passed yet.

    Strange that we have 'Global Warming' and yet our recorded highs have not actually surpassed previous recorded highs. Anecdotal evidence aside (like "it's hotter today then it was last year/decade/hundred years") there is virtually no evidence that the climate is any different today then it has been over thousands of years. Let alone that Man has had anything to do with it.

    The climate, for the record, changes. Always had, always will. As for man, yes he pollutes but here's my question: Do you honestly trust big government to solve that issue? After all it was big government that drained a sea and reversed the course of rivers, it was 'public' ownership that lead to burning rivers and 'private' ownership that ended them. Yes evil men can and do run corporations (for those in the 'evil men run corporations' crowd) but evil men also run governments and lets not forget that governments differ in that they have guns.

    The reality is that giving up your liberty in the name of gaining some safety will get you neither (to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin). You cannot simply throw money at the perceived problem in order to solve it all the while taking away what little liberty remains in this country (the rest of the world has even less) in hopes of saving man kind from that which actually is better for trees (fauna) and which man may or may not have anything to do with increasing and actually expect anything to change other then that you will have less freedom.

    Thinking that you can is utopian insanity.

  4. #1504
    Elite Member Rob-D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by houstonscott View Post
    Now take all that, warming/cooling argument and try to prove that is all happening because of man is burning fossil fuels. They are all non sequitur.

    HS
    Burning fossil fuels are massively damaging the planet, as I have shown and stated. That's a given and that is what we have to address.

    Rob

  5. #1505
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob-D View Post
    Burning fossil fuels are massively damaging the planet, as I have shown and stated. That's a given and that is what we have to address.

    Rob
    Sorry but no such thing has been proven by anyone. 'Massively' is a strong word my friend. On the other hand, it is possible that burning fossil fuel is bad but then it can be argued that a volcanic eruption is every bit as bad -- do we ban volcanoes then?

  6. #1506
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Coal & Electricity
    Total World Electricity Generation by Fuel (2006)

    Source: IEA 2008
    *Other includes solar, wind, combustible renewables, geothermal & waste

    Modern life is unimaginable without electricity. It lights houses, buildings, streets, provides domestic and industrial heat, and powers most equipment used in homes, offices and machinery in factories. Improving access to electricity worldwide is critical to alleviating poverty.

    Coal plays a vital role in electricity generation worldwide. Coal-fired power plants currently fuel 41% of global electricity. In some countries, coal fuels a higher percentage of electricity.
    Coal in Electricity Generation
    South Africa 93% Poland 92% PR China 79%
    Australia 77% Kazakhstan 70% India 69%
    Israel 63% Czech Rep 60% Morocco 55%
    Greece 52% USA 49% Germany 46%

    Source: IEA 2010

    The importance of coal to electricity generation worldwide is set to continue, with coal fuelling 44% of global electricity in 2030.

    How is Coal Converted to Electricity?


    Steam coal, also known as thermal coal, is used in power stations to generate electricity.

    Coal is first milled to a fine powder, which increases the surface area and allows it to burn more quickly. In these pulverised coal combustion (PCC) systems, the powdered coal is blown into the combustion chamber of a boiler where it is burnt at high temperature (see diagram below). The hot gases and heat energy produced converts water – in tubes lining the boiler – into steam.

    The high pressure steam is passed into a turbine containing thousands of propeller-like blades. The steam pushes these blades causing the turbine shaft to rotate at high speed. A generator is mounted at one end of the turbine shaft and consists of carefully wound wire coils. Electricity is generated when these are rapidly rotated in a strong magnetic field. After passing through the turbine, the steam is condensed and returned to the boiler to be heated once again.

    The electricity generated is transformed into the higher voltages (up to 400,000 volts) used for economic, efficient transmission via power line grids. When it nears the point of consumption, such as our homes, the electricity is transformed down to the safer 100-250 voltage systems used in the domestic market.
    Efficiency Improvements

    Improvements continue to be made in conventional PCC power station design and new combustion technologies are being developed. These allow more electricity to be produced from less coal - known as improving the thermal efficiency of the power station. Efficiency gains in electricity generation from coal-fired power stations will play a crucial part in reducing CO2 emissions at a global level.

    Efficiency improvements include the most cost-effective and shortest lead time actions for reducing emissions from coal-fired power generation. This is particularly the case in developing countries where existing power plant efficiencies are generally lower and coal use in electricity generation is increasing. Not only do higher efficiency coal-fired power plants emit less carbon dioxide per megawatt (MW), they are also more suited to retrofitting with CO2 capture systems.

    Improving the efficiency of pulverised coal-fired power plants has been the focus of considerable efforts by the coal industry. There is huge scope for achieving significant efficiency improvements as the existing fleet of power plants are replaced over the next 10-20 years with new, higher efficiency supercritical and ultra-supercritical plants and through the wider use of Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) systems for power generation.

    A one percentage point improvement in the efficiency of a conventional pulverised coal combustion plant results in a 2-3% reduction in CO2 emissions.

    coal electricity, coal power plants - World Coal Association

    Global Warming?-coal_electricity_page_pie.jpg

    Global Warming?-coal-plant-.jpg
    ::"I STARTED out with nothing....I still have most of it."

    New Holland TC45 1,300+ hours - FEL - back hoe - post hole digger - Hydraulic Gannon - cement mixer - pressure washer - 1975 Dodge 500 flat bed - 1974 chevy C65 6 yard dump truck.
    All home made by me. loading forks - 2 drags - roller - Sheep's Foot - Pusher (to unload flat bed truck.) - pickle fork digger - Log splitter -

  7. #1507
    Elite Member Rob-D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by emcvay View Post
    On a side not the hottest temperature ever recorded was in the 1920's (1922 I believe) and has not been passed yet.

    Strange that we have 'Global Warming' and yet our recorded highs have not actually surpassed previous recorded highs. Anecdotal evidence aside (like "it's hotter today then it was last year/decade/hundred years") there is virtually no evidence that the climate is any different today then it has been over thousands of years. Let alone that Man has had anything to do with it.

    The climate, for the record, changes. Always had, always will. As for man, yes he pollutes but here's my question: Do you honestly trust big government to solve that issue? After all it was big government that drained a sea and reversed the course of rivers, it was 'public' ownership that lead to burning rivers and 'private' ownership that ended them. Yes evil men can and do run corporations (for those in the 'evil men run corporations' crowd) but evil men also run governments and lets not forget that governments differ in that they have guns.

    The reality is that giving up your liberty in the name of gaining some safety will get you neither (to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin). You cannot simply throw money at the perceived problem in order to solve it all the while taking away what little liberty remains in this country (the rest of the world has even less) in hopes of saving man kind from that which actually is better for trees (fauna) and which man may or may not have anything to do with increasing and actually expect anything to change other then that you will have less freedom.

    Thinking that you can is utopian insanity.
    You think you are free? Tomorrow corporate oil decides to charge you 25 dollars a gallon for your gas and 50 dollars a gallon for home heating oil. What do you do? You are owned by a system. Freedom is an aspect of the individual, not the society and certainly not the government. Freedom is in autonomy, if you can establish autonomy you have a chance at individual freedom. When corporate oil has a noose around your neck the last thing you are is free. When pharmaceutical companies lock you into drugs for your entire life you are not free. Think about that.

    We live in a corporate oligarchy. You can't have corporations pouring billions of dollars (bribes) into a government and have that government be a government of the people.

    Addressing world pollution is an individual action, that is how it will change.

    "Massive change is entirely dependent upon individual action"

    MK Gandhi

  8. #1508
    Elite Member Rob-D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by crash325 View Post
    Coal & Electricity
    Total World Electricity Generation by Fuel (2006)

    Source: IEA 2008
    *Other includes solar, wind, combustible renewables, geothermal & waste

    Modern life is unimaginable without electricity. It lights houses, buildings, streets, provides domestic and industrial heat, and powers most equipment used in homes, offices and machinery in factories. Improving access to electricity worldwide is critical to alleviating poverty.

    Coal plays a vital role in electricity generation worldwide. Coal-fired power plants currently fuel 41% of global electricity. In some countries, coal fuels a higher percentage of electricity.
    Coal in Electricity Generation
    South Africa 93% Poland 92% PR China 79%
    Australia 77% Kazakhstan 70% India 69%
    Israel 63% Czech Rep 60% Morocco 55%
    Greece 52% USA 49% Germany 46%

    Source: IEA 2010

    The importance of coal to electricity generation worldwide is set to continue, with coal fuelling 44% of global electricity in 2030.

    How is Coal Converted to Electricity?


    Steam coal, also known as thermal coal, is used in power stations to generate electricity.

    Coal is first milled to a fine powder, which increases the surface area and allows it to burn more quickly. In these pulverised coal combustion (PCC) systems, the powdered coal is blown into the combustion chamber of a boiler where it is burnt at high temperature (see diagram below). The hot gases and heat energy produced converts water in tubes lining the boiler into steam.

    The high pressure steam is passed into a turbine containing thousands of propeller-like blades. The steam pushes these blades causing the turbine shaft to rotate at high speed. A generator is mounted at one end of the turbine shaft and consists of carefully wound wire coils. Electricity is generated when these are rapidly rotated in a strong magnetic field. After passing through the turbine, the steam is condensed and returned to the boiler to be heated once again.

    The electricity generated is transformed into the higher voltages (up to 400,000 volts) used for economic, efficient transmission via power line grids. When it nears the point of consumption, such as our homes, the electricity is transformed down to the safer 100-250 voltage systems used in the domestic market.
    Efficiency Improvements

    Improvements continue to be made in conventional PCC power station design and new combustion technologies are being developed. These allow more electricity to be produced from less coal - known as improving the thermal efficiency of the power station. Efficiency gains in electricity generation from coal-fired power stations will play a crucial part in reducing CO2 emissions at a global level.

    Efficiency improvements include the most cost-effective and shortest lead time actions for reducing emissions from coal-fired power generation. This is particularly the case in developing countries where existing power plant efficiencies are generally lower and coal use in electricity generation is increasing. Not only do higher efficiency coal-fired power plants emit less carbon dioxide per megawatt (MW), they are also more suited to retrofitting with CO2 capture systems.

    Improving the efficiency of pulverised coal-fired power plants has been the focus of considerable efforts by the coal industry. There is huge scope for achieving significant efficiency improvements as the existing fleet of power plants are replaced over the next 10-20 years with new, higher efficiency supercritical and ultra-supercritical plants and through the wider use of Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) systems for power generation.

    A one percentage point improvement in the efficiency of a conventional pulverised coal combustion plant results in a 2-3% reduction in CO2 emissions.

    coal electricity, coal power plants - World Coal Association

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    The coal industry has been making clean up claims for years but you don't pour billions of dollars into DC to clean up coal stacks, you do it to reduce pollution fines... it worked!

    Facts on the Pollution caused by the US Coal Industry

    A typical-sized 500 megawatt coal-fired electricity plant in the United States puts out each year:

    1. 3.7 million tons of carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is the main greenhouse gas, and is the leading cause of global warming. There are no regulations limiting carbon dioxide emissions in the U.S.

    2. 10,000 tons of sulfur dioxide. Sulfur dioxide (SOx) is the main cause of acid rain, which damages forests, lakes and buildings.

    3. 10,200 tons of nitrogen oxide. Nitrogen oxide (NOx) is a major cause of smog, and also a cause of acid rain.

    4. 500 tons of small particles. Small particulates are a health hazard, causing lung damage. Particulates smaller than 10 microns are not regulated, but may be soon.

    5. 220 tons of hydrocarbons. Fossil fuels are made of hydrocarbons; when they don稚 burn completely, they are released into the air. They are a cause of smog.

    6. 720 tons of carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide (CO) is a poisonous gas and contributor to global warming.

    7. 125,000 tons of ash and 193,000 tons of sludge from the smokestack scrubber. A scrubber uses powdered limestone and water to remove pollution from the plant痴 exhaust. Instead of going into the air, the pollution goes into a landfill or into products like concrete and drywall. This ash and sludge consists of coal ash, limestone, and many pollutants, such as toxic metals like lead and mercury.

    8. 225 pounds of arsenic, 114 pounds of lead, 4 pounds of cadmium, and many other toxic heavy metals. Mercury emissions from coal plants are suspected of contaminating lakes and rivers in northern and northeast states and Canada. In Wisconsin alone, more than 200 lakes and rivers are contaminated with mercury. Health officials warn against eating fish caught in these waters, since mercury can cause birth defects, brain damage and other ailments.

    9. Trace elements of uranium. All but 16 of the 92 naturally occurring elements have been detected in coal, mostly as trace elements below 0.1 percent (1,000 parts per million, or ppm). A study by DOE痴 Oak Ridge National Lab found that radioactive emissions from coal combustion are greater than those from nuclear power production.

    10. A 500 megawatt coal-fired electrical plant burns 1,430,000 tons of coal, uses 2.2 billion gallons of water and 146,000 tons of limestone a year.

  9. #1509
    Elite Member Rob-D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by emcvay View Post
    Sorry but no such thing has been proven by anyone. 'Massively' is a strong word my friend. On the other hand, it is possible that burning fossil fuel is bad but then it can be argued that a volcanic eruption is every bit as bad -- do we ban volcanoes then?
    You're kidding right?

    http://www.epa.gov/acidrain/educatio...hatcauses.html

    Sources of Acid Rain
    "Acid rain is caused by a chemical reaction that begins when compounds like sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides are released into the air. These substances can rise very high into the atmosphere, where they mix and react with water, oxygen, and other chemicals to form more acidic pollutants, known as acid rain. Sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides dissolve very easily in water and can be carried very far by the wind. As a result, the two compounds can travel long distances where they become part of the rain, sleet, snow, and fog that we experience on certain days.

    Human activities are the main cause of acid rain. Over the past few decades, humans have released so many different chemicals into the air that they have changed the mix of gases in the atmosphere. Power plants release the majority of sulfur dioxide and much of the nitrogen oxides when they burn fossil fuels, such as coal, to produce electricity. In addition, the exhaust from cars, trucks, and buses releases nitrogen oxides and sulfur dioxide into the air. These pollutants cause acid rain."

    I can go into the acidic effects on the oceans, barren lakes in the Catskills ,etc. etc. And when you're done here view the post to Crashes coal pollution that I replied to.

    Actually massively isn't strong enough. Devastatingly massive destruction is more like it.

    Rob

  10. #1510
    Elite Member
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    No matter what side you are on, greenie, warmer or denier, there are dozens of web sites to support your position.
    None of them Prove anything - Just someones or groups opinion.

    Hate to repeat myself but here goes.
    If coal was as bad as the last post says, everyone close to Tucson or N. AZ would have cancer or already dead.

    With All that acid rain nothing would be growing - Yet there are major farms all over the place around here. Strange????

    A few more little facts or quotes.
    I've got my solar panels and they are making me money. Very Good - They are guaranteed for 25 years. Maybe not so good.
    They were made in the USA -- Maybe not so good. 17+ Solar mfg. given gov $$$ have gone out of business. That includes GE.
    GE spokes man says when solar power proves practical and cost efficient they may start over.

    Glass panels require huge amounts of Heat to mfg. To the best of my knowledge they all use fossil fuel.
    Plastic panels are made out of crude oil.
    Glass can be shattered by a hale storm. 5 Years in the sun at my place and the plastic panels will be toast.

    Solar does not work to well covered with snow. Not a problem, go heaters to melt it off. Opp's Need a whole bunch of them Lead Acid batteries. How do you blow the clouds away when the whole sky turns gray.

    Don't use lead acid batteries, got some of those lithium batteries. Good deal They are a little worse hazard than the lead acid. Bet they contain some of that nasty cadmium, mined in China.

    Enough for 1 Rant.
    ::"I STARTED out with nothing....I still have most of it."

    New Holland TC45 1,300+ hours - FEL - back hoe - post hole digger - Hydraulic Gannon - cement mixer - pressure washer - 1975 Dodge 500 flat bed - 1974 chevy C65 6 yard dump truck.
    All home made by me. loading forks - 2 drags - roller - Sheep's Foot - Pusher (to unload flat bed truck.) - pickle fork digger - Log splitter -

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