Global Warming?

[Mace Canute]

I just read this today in a new article. They claim "First greenhouse gas spiked, then temperatures rose" but if you read the bit I put in bold, they say the warming came first. Talk about denial! it's so bad they contradict themselves and don't even seem to realize it.

Ice age thaw may serve as global warning: First greenhouse gas spiked, then temperatures rose
Seth Borenstein, The Associated Press
at 13:08 on April 04, 2012, EDT.

* WASHINGTON - The dramatic temperature increases that thawed the last ice age followed spikes in carbon dioxide levels in the air, a new study finds. Researchers say that further strengthens the scientific case explaining current man-made global warming.
* In the new study, scientists show the atmospheric concentration of that heat-trapping greenhouse gas jumped more than 40 per cent. Then global temperatures went up about 6 degrees Fahrenheit (3.5 degrees Celsius).
* What is remarkable is that when the two are plotted they rise, plateau and rise again in a striking similar way with a slight lag. The warming over 6,000 years follows the greenhouse gas increase, just as scientific theory has long held.
* This is important because, until this study, the two curves weren't quite so in sync. At some points, it seemed that the temperatures warmed before the carbon dioxide levels increased, something that climate skeptics seized upon.
* How could carbon dioxide cause warming if the temperatures warmed first, argue skeptics, who are in the scientific minority.
* Earlier studies had looked at carbon dioxide levels and temperature readings from Antarctica, not the entire world. A study published Wednesday in the journal Nature estimated global temperatures using 80 different proxies ice and mud samples from dozens of places around the world and found that globally, temperatures clearly went up only after carbon dioxide jumped.
* "You end up with something that looks remarkably similar to the pattern of rising carbon dioxide through time," study lead author Jeremy Shankun of Harvard University said. "This, to me, seems like pretty powerful proof of theory of the connection between greenhouse gases and global warming."
* There are two main sources of carbon dioxide, the chief greenhouse gas. The natural source comes mostly from dead plants and animals and that amplified the ice age thaw. In modern day, emissions from burning coal, oil and other fossil fuels add greatly to that natural carbon dioxide.
* The ice age warming in Antarctica still appears to come before the carbon dioxide increases, which are calculated using an 800,000 year old Antarctic ice core, but there's good reason, Shankun said.
* Temperature records and other ocean data paint a complicated picture of just how the last ice age thawed. It is almost like a complicated contraption, with one step leading to another and another. When the last ice age peaked about 25,000 years ago, the ice sheet extended to Iowa and New York City, Shankun said.
* The ice sheet was actually so large that it was unstable, said study co-author Peter Clark of Oregon State University.
* The initial trigger to the melt: A small and predictable wobble in Earth's orbit around the sun. That tiny wobble meant a tilt toward the sun that brought more sunlight in the Northern Hemisphere, causing ice sheets to melt and sending whopping levels of fresh water into the world's oceans.
* That caused the global circulation of the oceans to stop, which in turn warmed the southern oceans, melting southern ice sheets over areas where more of the world's carbon dioxide is trapped, Shankun said.
* That released massive amounts of the greenhouse gas, which then amplified the global temperature spike, Shankun said.
* By 11,000 years ago, the ice age was history and greenhouse gas and temperature levels had stabilized. That changed with the industrial age and the increased use of fossil fuels.
* Carbon dioxide levels have jumped roughly the same amount in the last century as they did over 6,000 years to get out of the ice age, Shankun said.
* Penn State University professor Richard Alley and others called this a significant advance in studies about past climate change and carbon dioxide, saying "this may be of help in explaining things out in the sound-bite world."

 

[lockhaven]

just read the same thin Mace, same place in fact. was going to post the link but you beat me to it.:thumbsup:

 

[patrick_g]

just read the same thin Mace, same place in fact. was going to post the link but you beat me to it.:thumbsup:

Is anyone reading the last two highlighted lines?

 

[SPYDERLK]

Compare to Europe.

It is left to the observer to deskew the comparison of His in F to Lows in Celcius.
...larry

 

[Chuck52]

Is anyone reading the last two highlighted lines?

Yup. Are you going to try to explain? I gave up a while back.

Chuck

 

[SPYDERLK]

Yeah, like loss of water to outer space. Not very fast but it happens.

Pat

Probly less than that arriving by meteorite ...
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

[/B]

Is anyone reading the last two highlighted lines?

Good for you!

 

[Egon]

BBC News - CO2 'drove end to last ice age'

A new, detailed record of past climate change provides compelling evidence that the last ice age was ended by a rise in temperature driven by an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide.

More grain for the Grist Mill.

Don't ask me to expain. Don't have the background to properly evaluate so I can just read and think about it!

 

[EE_Bota]

Oh, OK. I really prefer face to face I have a devil of a time sometimes when I can't see your face like the previous exchange. Well du-uh Patrick, answer the man...

I started out in physics and found out a BS will let you be an electronics technician for a PhD so I cut to the chase and became an electronics guy engineering various things fromWinchester drive stuff nin 70's , medical electronic instruments, portable battery operated welders and lots of lesser consulting free lance stuff and then... I found true religion (computers) and went enrolled in "a couple evening classes just to find out what the other side of the coin was like (software)" and had so much fun I got a BS in computer science. Went to work for Government and in more evening classes got masters in software engineering and then about 6 yrs before taking early retirement I changed jobs within the lab where I worked (job title scientist) and was accepted in new job on probation pending going back to grad school at San Diego State University in instructional technology which is engineering training solutions and related courseware materials from a checklist or workbook to computer aided instruction over the internet and everything between. I was mostly managing but did get my hands dirty on the computer stuff and requirements analysis for Naval warfighting systems like the Joint Strike Fighter, several UAV's FA-18, and a host of surface combatants. Somewhere in there I skipped over a few years where I was in charge of SSIXS (not a Tom Clancy fan?) OK SSIXS is the system that gets a message from the pres to the nuclear weapon shooter submarine within 5 min of origination or in less stressful times the birth announcement to a submariner who is submerged for months at a time. I sorta glossed over lots of detail but you get the idea. Standard jack of many things scientific and master of a few.

I had jobs where they called me engineer too but what did they know? One startup I was affiliated with gave me the official title of "Wizard" and I received mail so addressed. Now I have 160 acres, 12 ponds, and a herd of black Angus in a prolonged drought but sure slung plenty of mud when I was out this PM tending to herd issues.. I'm also a pilot, SCUBA diver, Ham, woodworker, sharpshooter, Viet Nam Era Vet, instrument flying instructor on computerized simulator (USAF), backpacker, pool shooter, movie buff, electographer, and a bunch of other stuff. I can neuter a shark, clear a bar, sail a sailboat, run a slalom course in a sports car or grab some air with my VW powered dune buggy (as soon as I replace the leaky oil cooler and re-install the engine.

I have no dog in the fight with respect to the issue of whether global warming/climate change is to any degree man made. I don't make or lose money on related issues. I think it unfortunate that so many people have been exposed to so much confusion that there is a general backlash against the unsettling thought that there may be detrimental change. This paralysis is not doing the afflicted or the rest of us any good.

I'm reminded of the scene in the original movie "Poseidon Adventure" where there are two groups of survivors inside the upside down cruise ship. They pass each other going in opposite directions, each totally convinced they are headed toward survival/escape and that the other group however well intentioned is doomed to perish. They each make entreaty to the other to come with us and live. Proceed at your own peril. One group survived.

You are offered a drink. There is a filter that can reduce contaminates to a safe level but it is expensive and you have been drinking from this well for years. How would you like to find out after it was too late that you have knocked off 20 years from your like expectancy due to contaminates you could have filtered out but didn't based on any number of specious arguments as valid as the guy who fell off the 40 story building and was heard to shout as he passed the 20th floor, "So far so good!"

No matter where you go there you are - Buckaroo Banzai in his adventures across the eighth dimension.

You ask what time it is and not only do I tell you how to build a watch but also the history of horology.

Pat

That's very impressive to me; You've done many amazing things!

Of the things I have done, Plant Engineering seems to drive my opinion of the global warming issue. If we consider our country as a whole, we have to also consider the state of our infrastructure, our demographics, and the budget, and so many things including the physical size of our country, and how we have chosen to distribute ourselves.

If you will envision being plant engineer of the entire country, and imagine everyone trying to task your department, you would obviously have to rank actionable opportunities against risks and budget.

I tend to rank global warming very low as far as real threats in the near term, and I am aided in that decision by the lack of actionable items that would help in any substantial way.

I would rank the energy issues we face quite high on the list of threats, and I have noted for a good long while that energy prices seem to control the limit of our economy and as we try to rise, they quickly slap us back down.

Although I think folks underestimate and overestimate in turns the amount of energy we have available they can easily be forgiven that so long as it is not intentional...since much is either buried or complicated or in early development. But I think folks either overestimate or outright lie about the amount of money we have to address an issue like global warming, and I find that far harder to forgive.

So, the solution for some is to substitute the global warming issue for the energy issue. I don't find that helpful, instead I find it destructive. I think the reverse is justified...subordinate Global Warming to the energy issue. We should go forward finding energy solutions that will serve to strengthen our budget and our future prospects, not global warming issues that will serve to divide our nation further.

I don't see anything in what you wrote above that would disagree. Your example about contaminated water..I will take it as you meant it. But if I take it literally to the case at hand...I think is could be beer, and we should enjoy it. But extending it to CO2 in general was obviously not intended by you, so I will let that lay rather than point out any issues.

Our demographics amount to a staggering problem, and our budget...don't get me started, and if you combine that with our energy issues, we are in dire straights on many fronts. Folks wishing to discuss global warming would have a hard time getting past my secretary. (I don't have one in real life...I presume I would if I were plant engineer of the country.)

 

[Short Game]