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  1. #971
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob-D View Post
    Mountaintop-removal mining is devastating Appalachia, but residents are fighting back | Grist

    "As a result, 6,700 ç*şalley fills were approved in central Appalachia between 1985 and 2001. The U.S. EPA estimates that over 700 miles of healthy streams have been completely buried by mountaintop removal and thousands more have been damaged."

    "Block Hollow and replaced it with the compacted rubble of a valley fill. In a region prone to flash floods, nothing was left to hold back the rain; this once-forested watershed had been turned into an enormous funnel. In 2002, three so-called hundred-year floods happened in 10 days. Between the blasting and the flooding, the people of McRoberts have been nearly flushed out of their homes."

    Rob
    I am not arguing mining doesn't have negative impacts so I don't need all that other info. I was just challenging your original statement. Mining operations do increase runoff. Valley fills are thought to increase runoff but I think it's more likely other reasons before and during mining rather than after mining.

    You cut off the beginning of the sentence: "Then TECO sheared off all of the vegetation at the head of Chopping Block Hollow..." Most likely, the removal of vegetation is the culprit of excessive runoff and sedimentation. Strangely enough, those valley fills might actually hold more water than when that rock was naturally in place because the soil porosity has greatly increased therefore the water holding capacity is much higher. One of the biggest problems with valley fills is that since its is permeable and the volume of rock has a higher surface area, more minerals dissolve into the water that ends up in streams below. This greatly increases TDS (total dissolved solids) which is becoming more recognized as a in-stream "stressor" to the ecology.

  2. #972
    Super Star Member Egon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob-D View Post
    I can see you didn't understand the analogy.
    What was analogy??

    Always figured poker was a game of deception; isn't it?
    Egon
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  3. #973
    Super Star Member Egon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Think sometimes them big wind turbine electrical turbines create vortices that may jumble up warm and warmer air meaning the warm and warmer could be inverted or maybe subducted making changes to the normal air energy level.
    Egon
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  4. #974
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob-D View Post
    So what do you think creates more heat a coal plant furnace or a wind mill?

    Are we measuring the area around a coal plant? A nuclear plant, the water heated by the nuclear plant?
    Exactly. I would say a coal plant furnace (itself) would be warmer than a wind mill. Was that a serious question? That is sort of my point. There could be other reasons as I stated that could cause the area around the wind turbine to warm. Why are we talking about a coal plant anyways? I think you get a little too defensive in your posts.

  5. #975
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob-D View Post
    It's a conversion process! Wind is being converted to electricity, there are always efficiency losses. Coal converted to electric has efficiency losses, nuclear, etc. You don't get 100% efficiency, it's impossible. Heat is the result. Grab a 60 watt incandescent lamp, you can't hold it but an equivalent CFL only uses 9 watts, it's a lot cooler BUT both heat the area around the lamp just at different efficiencies! Everything that converts creates heat in the area. Geeze!

    Rob
    Yep, but that isn't even the cause...if such there be. Even the article explains that it is caused by the turbiens stirring up the air causing cooler air near ground to be replaced by warmer air up a little higher.

    Fox News report. FWIW - usual distortion in headlines and bury the "facts" as deeply as possible in the report.

    Anyone who knows the first law of thermo knows that any local gain in energy _here_ has to result in a local loss _over there_.

    Harry K

  6. #976
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egon View Post
    Think sometimes them big wind turbine electrical turbines create vortices that may jumble up warm and warmer air meaning the warm and warmer could be inverted or maybe subducted making changes to the normal air energy level.
    Agreed. That's what I was trying to say to Rob-D but then he turned it into coal plants, etc.

  7. #977
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by turnkey4099 View Post
    Yep, but that isn't even the cause...if such there be. Even the article explains that it is caused by the turbiens stirring up the air causing cooler air near ground to be replaced by warmer air up a little higher.

    Fox News report. FWIW - usual distortion in headlines and bury the "facts" as deeply as possible in the report.

    Anyone who knows the first law of thermo knows that any local gain in energy _here_ has to result in a local loss _over there_.

    Harry K
    Yeah that's why some people go as far as using large fans to blow over their crop if they think there will be a late frost. Frost occurs on cloudless/windless nights because the air stratifies with much colder air on bottom. If you use large fans to mix that air then you have a chance a preventing frost. I've seen large operations actually go as far as to fly helicopters over a 30 acre crop to prevent frost. That blew my mind!

  8. #978
    Elite Member Rob-D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by criz067 View Post
    I am not arguing mining doesn't have negative impacts so I don't need all that other info. I was just challenging your original statement. Mining operations do increase runoff. Valley fills are thought to increase runoff but I think it's more likely other reasons before and during mining rather than after mining.

    You cut off the beginning of the sentence: "Then TECO sheared off all of the vegetation at the head of Chopping Block Hollow..." Most likely, the removal of vegetation is the culprit of excessive runoff and sedimentation. Strangely enough, those valley fills might actually hold more water than when that rock was naturally in place because the soil porosity has greatly increased therefore the water holding capacity is much higher. One of the biggest problems with valley fills is that since its is permeable and the volume of rock has a higher surface area, more minerals dissolve into the water that ends up in streams below. This greatly increases TDS (total dissolved solids) which is becoming more recognized as a in-stream "stressor" to the ecology.
    Thanks for the info.
    Rob

  9. #979
    Elite Member Rob-D's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by criz067 View Post
    Yeah that's why some people go as far as using large fans to blow over their crop if they think there will be a late frost. Frost occurs on cloudless/windless nights because the air stratifies with much colder air on bottom. If you use large fans to mix that air then you have a chance a preventing frost. I've seen large operations actually go as far as to fly helicopters over a 30 acre crop to prevent frost. That blew my mind!
    I agree, cloud cover usually = warmth.

    I brought in the coal plants for comparison, regardless how each system creates and disturbs the environment it's not possible to extract or convert energy without heat. Entropy balances the event.

    Carnot Cycles anyone?

    Rob

  10. #980
    Elite Member Redneck in training's Avatar
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    Default Re: Global Warming?

    Quote Originally Posted by criz067 View Post
    Yeah that's why some people go as far as using large fans to blow over their crop if they think there will be a late frost. Frost occurs on cloudless/windless nights because the air stratifies with much colder air on bottom. If you use large fans to mix that air then you have a chance a preventing frost. I've seen large operations actually go as far as to fly helicopters over a 30 acre crop to prevent frost. That blew my mind!
    In fact they hire helicopters to fly over the vineyards to mix the air preventing ground level frost.

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