Climate Change Discussion

hazmat · Jan 29, 2007

It seems we got off on a tangent in this thread Brown clashes with Orange. I though I'd start a subject on it's own.

I know this is a potentially politically charged subject, but I for one think our children's future crosses political parties (and that we here at tbn can discuss it in a civilized mannor).

I turned 32 today, I have grown up with the environmental movement. As an optomist & idealist, I always thought the government would come thru to protect future generations, well I haven't seen that - we americans have become addicted to energy, thanks in no small part to our government's subsidy of fossil fuels.

I recently saw Mr. Gore's movie An inconvenient truth. Granted it is designed for "shock value" but he makes a good arguement that humans are making an impact on the climate.

He referenced a study that compared global warming in scientific periodicals with the popular press. They looked at ~900 articles in the periodicals, none disputed that global warming was happening. More than 50% of the articles in the popular press "created doubt". Sounds like propaganda to me....

I've come to believe that:
1 - We are in the midst of climate change
2 - It is "our" fault
3 - I am going to do something about it now

So what am I doing about it? - reducing my family's CO2 emmisions & reliance on fossil fuels as much as practicle.

Check here for a carbon calculator

1- Paying 2 cents more for renewable (wind & hydro) electricity that does not emit CO2 (every kwH produces ~1.5 lbs CO2)

2- Traded my truck for a car that gets 2X better fuel milage (every gallon of gas burned produces 22 lbs)

3- Considering geothermal (ground source heat pump) heat for my house to minimize natural gas use.

4- Trying to convince my wife that we should buy a hybrid & park her SUV unless we need the capacity - weekend trips vs. her commute to work.

5- Plan to install Solar PV panels on my roof.

6- Reduce energy use, CF bulbs, better insulation etc.

7- Buying biodiesel for my tractor (see it is related)

8- Support renewable energy "in my backyard" (wind projects off the Mass coast etc.)

Even if you don't believe / aren't concerned about climate change, you should be concerned about running out of fossil fuels. Every article / book I've read states that we will reach the peak production (1/2 the known resources consumed) in my lifetime, after that, energy prices will continue to rise as supply diminishes. Our economy thrives on "cheap energy". What kind of great depression will our children face, if we don't start now to create more renewable energy.

Here's all the motivation I need:

turnkey4099 · Jan 29, 2007

This is a topic that is hotly debated everywhere. My view is:

Global warming _is_ happening as shown by all the ice missing off glaciers and the polar icecaps.

Is there a natural warming cycle? Yes

Are we the cause? No, not solely.

Are we contributing - Yes.

Harry K

BB_TX · Jan 29, 2007

I take basically the same position as Harry. I think we are in a normal warming cycle. And I think mankind contributes to that. But I am not convinced emission reductions will have a significant impact on minimizing the cycle. However, I do believe it should be done just in case it is a significant factor. It would not be wise to wait for positive proof and then try to reverse it.

EddieWalker · Jan 29, 2007

While I agree that it's important to cut down polution as much as possible, I don't believe that humans are responsible for the one degree increase in global tempatures over the last century.

Without getting political, there are a few things in history that prove this.

The grape vine is very tempermental and will only grow in certain areas at certain tempatures. Too cold or too warm and it will die. The Romans grew wine grapes in Great Britain 2,000 years ago. The tempatures there were warmer during this period than they are today.

Since we know for a fact that the planet was warmer during the Roman Empire than it is today, the question is what warmed the planet up to those levels after the previous ice age? Did the Romans cause global warming to the point they could grow grape vines in Great Britain?

The British cannot grow grapes today, which means it's not as warm there as it was 2,000 years ago. I agree the planet is warming, but it's not as warm as it has been.

I believe the planets tempature is a natural condition determined by the sun. There is evidence that the ice caps on Mars are melting. Since there are no humans there to cause it, we must assume that the sun is responsible.

Why that can be a natural occurance, but here on Earth, humans are responsible doesn't make any sense to me.

Follow the money and you'll see who's supporting Global Warming and how Mankind is responsible compared those not getting any grant money who say it's not true. Enviromental Lobbiest are now the biggest spender in Washington DC. They far outspend Energy or any other groups.

Eddie

goaliedad · Jan 29, 2007

Help me understand something- how can one gallon of gas ( weighs what- about 8 pounds? ) produce 22 pounds of CO2? What am I missing?

LMTC · Jan 29, 2007

If you really want to "discuss it" as you claim it seems to me counterproductive to start right off by telling us what we should do....
"you should be concerned about running out of fossil fuels."

Suppose I'm not concerned about that (and I'm not).

Stop for a moment and ask yourself how you would feel if I started a thread stating my belief that the global warming campaign (follow the money, follow the money) is promoted at its roots by those who make money from it or its supposed solutions, dismissed the Gore movie in one statement (sounds like propaganda to me) with no actual analysis, AND that I finished my opening with the statement "You should not be concerned about running out of fossil fuels." Would you really consider that an invitation to discuss something? Or a statement of my position?

mjarrels · Jan 29, 2007

I could go for al little global warming right now... don't think the temps will reach 30 today.

mark

scott_vt · Jan 29, 2007

Afternoon Haz,
Gee thats a real tough question, I dunno

But I really loved the pic of you and your son, it says it all

In my Vt residence I subscibe to CowPower sponsored by Central Vermont Public Service Corp. Using manure to produce electricity, costs a bit more, but beats importing foreign oil IMHO

Tig · Jan 29, 2007

I'm with you on this. Hats off to you Hazmat!
I installed geothermal in 1990. Most thought I was deaming/crazy. No regrets.
Also put in CF bulbs back then. They are much better and cheaper now than they were in 1990. Still was worth it, only one of the original bulbs has failed.
I have driven 4 cyl vehicles since the 70s. No regrets. (I have had a few 6cyls as second vehicles) My last two cars have been 40MPG.
I compost (also since the 70s) and recycle as much as they will take.
For fishing I use an electric motor. (good fishing close by)
For everyone in Ontario I would encourage you to check out bullfrogpower.com
None of these things were sacrifices or difficult. Most were convenient and actually saved me money.
I do have some not so enviro friendly habbits. I'll work on those.

dooleysm · Jan 29, 2007

I've seen this debated in a variety of different forums. It's hard to change anyone's mind on political or religious views and many people can't argue logically about either. Many people have a hard time separating their feelings from their argument and feel that a rebuttal of their ideas is a personal attack.

I will say that while I don't agree with your thoughts on global warming, we are in agreement on steps we are taking:

1- Paying 2 cents more for renewable (wind & hydro) electricity that does not emit CO2 (every kwH produces ~1.5 lbs CO2)

* I don't have this option, and probably would not do it if it were an option

2- Traded my truck for a car that gets 2X better fuel milage (every gallon of gas burned produces 22 lbs)

* I did this and am now getting 28-31 mpg vs 14-17 mpg

3- Considering geothermal (ground source heat pump) heat for my house to minimize natural gas use.

* I installed a geothermal heat pump when we built our house and am a huge proponent of the technology

4- Trying to convince my wife that we should buy a hybrid & park her SUV unless we need the capacity - weekend trips vs. her commute to work.

* Like I said, I traded my daily truck for a more fuel effecient car

5- Plan to install Solar PV panels on my roof.

* I've looked into it, but it's too expensive

6- Reduce energy use, CF bulbs, better insulation etc.

* I am switching to CF as my incandesants burn out, I used ICFs in my basement and very effecient cellulose in my walls and attic

7- Buying biodiesel for my tractor (see it is related)

* I buy biodiesel because that's what the co-op down the street sells

8- Support renewable energy "in my backyard" (wind projects off the Mass coast etc.)

* I don't do this that I know of

My decisions were all based on financial incentives. People do not want to pollute, but if it's significantly cheaper to buy 'dirty' diesel vs. biodiesel, people are gonig to buy the cheaper. I'm all for living clean, but as soon as it puts undue strain on my way of life, I'm out. I think that's a fairly common view.