Heatpump question

[Bird]

Steve
Glad to hear you got it fixed. I know what you mean though $500 can be an "ouch" for some but a killer for others.

After having had a heat pump when we lived over in Fairfax we swore we'd never have another. When we get up in the morning nothing beats being able to warm the toes over the gas heating ducts. We never got anything more than a lukewarm flow out of the heat pump even though the room temp was the same.

WVBill

This house is our first heat pump and we like it. And one of my wife's brothers had one installed in their home in the southern tip of West Virginia a couple of years ago and they've been happy with it.

 

[kenmac]

Just remember, if the t-stat is set to 72, and it's 72 inside, what's the difference?

Seriously, R-22 units (heat pumps) blow a air temperature lower than your body temp (unlike a gas furnace wich blows an air temperature warmer than your body temp). So... when the air comes out of the registers, it feels like it is colder. However, it is still hot enough to keep the t-stat where you normally want it.

Keep in mind, with R410A units, the air temp in heating mode (heat pump) is now warmer than your body temp, unlike the R-22 units.

Depending on your electric rates, usually a lot cheaper to run a heat pump rather than a fossile fuel unit.

A hydro heat system feels about the same as a H.P. to me. Not a hot air like the gas F.A.F.I installed a hydro heat system in my house once. I took it out before my wife could run me off. I installed a 90+ gas F.A.F. We will be getting about 6.5% elec. increase after the 1 st of the year. I wonder if he has a trane unit ? I've had a few problems with trane units donig what his did.

Hey Joe . have you installed any instantaneous water heaters ?? I went to the Rheem W.H. plant and took a class on these things. I personally wouldn't have one. Rheem said they are getting alot of these things back into the plant with water passeges stopped up with scale & lime. I'm sure the other brands are no different. Sales People ( installers)are not telling their customers that these things need to be flushed (depending on water type) every 6 mo to 1 year to keep the lime & scale out.

 

[Sigarms]

A hydro heat system feels about the same as a H.P. to me. Not a hot air like the gas F.A.F.I installed a hydro heat system in my house once. I took it out before my wife could run me off. I installed a 90+ gas F.A.F. We will be getting about 6.5% elec. increase after the 1 st of the year. I wonder if he has a trane unit ? I've had a few problems with trane units donig what his did.

Hey Joe . have you installed any instantaneous water heaters ?? I went to the Rheem W.H. plant and took a class on these things. I personally wouldn't have one. Rheem said they are getting alot of these things back into the plant with water passeges stopped up with scale & lime. I'm sure the other brands are no different. Sales People ( installers)are not telling their customers that these things need to be flushed (depending on water type) every 6 mo to 1 year to keep the lime & scale out.

Ken, what's funny with HVAC/hydronics is that depending on what part of the country you're in, people have different "terminoligy" Sort of like when someone talks about a hot water furnace and it's a boiler

When you say hydro heat, do you mean a boiler with baseboard or a water heater with a hot water coil in the ductwork? Or are you refering to Dave's little house of horrors?

When I first came to N.C I had no clue what a "gas pack" was. Had the guy explain what it was, and I said, "oh, a package unit, you set them on the roof". He replied "no, you set them on the side of the house". I learned quick enough that you don't have a lot of basements in N.C.

Actually, over the weekend I was thinking about having my well water tested again, since last year when we put in a water conditioning system (we did have some very "hard" water when we moved in and the house was unoccupied for years). I have thought about the issue with the heat exchanger in those water heaters (reason for wanting to test my water), but honestly, have not heard anything from anyone about it in the last three years selling them. I've been to one manufacturers facility in Georgia for certification, and again, nothing mentioned about "large issues" with the heat exchangers, but it was brought to our attention about the possibility of issues depending on the quality of water.

Since I have a 50 gal direct vent water (already have a hole in the wall)heater in the basement, and it still takes a while to get hot water to the third floor, and my wife still can't fill the large tub with hot water before running out, I'm leaning in the direction of a continuous water heater. Actually wouldn't be that much more than replacing the current unit (which is getting old).

Remember, they're called a "continuous" hot water heater . When you say "instantaneous", you're implying the homeowner may have "automatic" hot water at the outlet, and depending on the run to the outlets, you may have a disgruntled homeowner because unless you put in a small point of use electric or circ pump (which I'm not fond of), you may have a disgruntled homeowner when it takes more than a couple of minutes to actually get the hot water.

P.S Come on Ken, nothing runs like a Trane (I'm being sarcastic)

 

[kenmac]

Ken, what's funny with HVAC/hydronics is that depending on what part of the country you're in, people have different "terminoligy" Sort of like when someone talks about a hot water furnace and it's a boiler

When you say hydro heat, do you mean a boiler with baseboard or a water heater with a hot water coil in the ductwork? Or are you refering to Dave's little house of horrors?

When I first came to N.C I had no clue what a "gas pack" was. Had the guy explain what it was, and I said, "oh, a package unit, you set them on the roof". He replied "no, you set them on the side of the house". I learned quick enough that you don't have a lot of basements in N.C.

Actually, over the weekend I was thinking about having my well water tested again, since last year when we put in a water conditioning system (we did have some very "hard" water when we moved in and the house was unoccupied for years). I have thought about the issue with the heat exchanger in those water heaters (reason for wanting to test my water), but honestly, have not heard anything from anyone about it in the last three years selling them. I've been to one manufacturers facility in Georgia for certification, and again, nothing mentioned about "large issues" with the heat exchangers, but it was brought to our attention about the possibility of issues depending on the quality of water.

Since I have a 50 gal direct vent water (already have a hole in the wall)heater in the basement, and it still takes a while to get hot water to the third floor, and my wife still can't fill the large tub with hot water before running out, I'm leaning in the direction of a continuous water heater. Actually wouldn't be that much more than replacing the current unit (which is getting old).

Remember, they're called a "continuous" hot water heater . When you say "instantaneous", you're implying the homeowner may have "automatic" hot water at the outlet, and depending on the run to the outlets, you may have a disgruntled homeowner because unless you put in a small point of use electric or circ pump (which I'm not fond of), you may have a disgruntled homeowner when it takes more than a couple of minutes to actually get the hot water.

P.S Come on Ken, nothing runs like a Trane (I'm being sarcastic)

Ok, hydro heat( around here anyway) = hot water heater with a water coil on top of an air handler


In the rheem school and around here they are called instantaneous water heaters


" nothing runs like a trane" believe it or not....This solgan has sold a lot of trane units

 

[AndyMA]

My wife hates the heatpump, but I love it. I like cold weather. I grew up with a woodstove and it was always so hot in the house I could barely stand it. I like the cool heat (well you know what I mean ). I got the wife a space heater do when she is taking a shower it will be warm for her.

Steve

Is this an air sourced heat pump? I plan on installing a water sourced heat pump system in a new hours we plan on building. I've been assured that the heating will be better and more even than a gas or oil fired system.

Andy

 

[shaley]

I'm also looking at a gound source HP and so is my next door neighbor. He wants to use vertical ground loop wells. 1 ton per well.
First price quote:
Water furnace 4 Ton 30 SEER. 4 wells $1300 per well. Total system installed cost no duct work. $18,000. His Total A/C Heat bill is $750/yr. Not much payback there.
He's a mechanical engineer so we started thinking. Current unit is 3.5 ton air source so how much capacity is really needed. His house is 2000sf with R22 walls and not too many windows. He used the Trane sizing software to model his home and it says 3 ton based on cooling, which is a greater load for us, not 3.5. He doesn't know whether to trust the software. The other night is was 29 deg calm clear so he turned off the HP and turned the electric strip heater which are 12KW and timed the cycles for about 3 hrs. Based on the time he used about 22,000 btu/hr. Exactly what the sizing software said.
Second price quote:
He got a new quote from a different contractor for a 3 Ton 30 SEER geothermal and it was $12,000. Much better. (this contractor wasn't driving a Lexus like the first).
The 2007 Energy bill apparently was giving a $5000 tax credit per household for Geothermal HP but I think that was stripped from the bill that got passed yesterday.

I want to use an open source ground water HP with a shallow well and just replace my outside unit. That's a different story for a different post.

 

[Sigarms]

The 2007 Energy apparently was giving a $5000 tax credit per household for Geothermal HP but I think that was stripped from the bill that got passed yesterday.

As usual I could be wrong, but you might of got some people really excited who may of put a geothermal system this year, because I don't think it was $5,000 but a total of $500. This credit was not based on a geothermal system alone, but based on the SEER, EER and HSPF rating (HSPF for heat pump).

I had heard a couple months ago that the goverment was doing away with this credit going into next year.

If I remember the website correctly, it was Home : ENERGY STAR

Again, I could be wrong.

 

[shaley]

Sig, I had heard it only as a rumor as well. I was speaking of the 2007 bill Energy independence Act) that was passed yesterday by the House. Pres. Bush still has to sign it. They were going to take the some tax credits away from the oil companies to fund the consumer geothermal credit but I think it got nixed.

My solution is to pull up my wood floor as I get cold and burn it in the wood stove. Plenty of plywood under it. Burned the Stickley furiture last year (a lot of heat on a dining room table and chairs). When I get cold I just pull up a few strips and throw it in. I hope it last until March.

 

[sandman2234]

I think my heat pump has register heat of around 120 degees. Compare that to the temps of a gas fired furnace of about 450 and it begins to make sense. Heat pumps are made to run longer, and move more air to make up for the short period of time it takes to run some of the other types of heating. In cold periods they are usually sized to require some external help, such as heating strips. Moving the thermostat to warm your toes is often done by the heat strips kicking on, and costing more money. Installation of a heat pump in the house of elderly or people with previous gas furnaces usually ends up with several service calls for service of units that "aren't working" but in fact really are just not understood by the new owner.
My Mother wanted to go with a heat pump, and I told her she wouldn't be happy with it, but she did it anyway. It has taken some serious explanations by qualified service people, and a few more by me, to get her used to it. 7 years later, she finally sets the thermostat and leaves it alone!
Great story shaley!!
David from jax

 

[dmccarty]

The tax benefits for solar water heating, solar power generation, etc will expire in 2008. The bill that just passed does not extend the benfits past 2008. Hopefully in 2008 they will extend the date. But who knows.

Shaley, have you figured out the cost per BTU of burning the wood floor and the furniture? Is it cheaper the propane and/or fuel oil?

Later,
Dan