Tell me about seeding please..

[SCRich]

I am kind of new to seeding and am seeing some odd things happening. Maybe someone can shed some light.

I am having problem with grass seed, oats and wheat. I have seeded with winter rye and brown top millett with no trouble.

Along my road frontage we tore out 3 dead trees leaving big open holes that were backfilled. This was about mid/late August, I dropped starter fertilizer then seeded with Kentucky 31 and covered up with a good coating of straw.
It rained 2-3 days after seeding and maybe once a week since then, and about 3 weeks ago it rained for like 2 days in a row and misted for another 2 days. Some seed sprouted but VERY little and what did just sprouted about 4-5 days ago. I don't think any more will germinate so this morning (rained the past 2 days in a row for a bit) I used a small hand cultivator, seeded by hand quite heavy) then steped over the seed to get good contact. Some spots were muddy but not too bad. When should I expect to see this seed sprout, 2weeks ?

I have also planted several food plots for deer over the past month. A mix of winter rye, wheat and oats which I added some brown top millett which I know sprouts fast and will protect from errosion along with hopefully guard the seed from a visual with the birds. Probably a total of 4-5 acres were planted at the same time and they were limed the next day. Some plots got regular white lime with a walk behind spreader while the others I did with pellet lime. One 2 acre plot was boxed and raked and somewhat firm while the others were tilled and quite soft and were not good to walk a spreader on so I did it with an ATV spreader. These plots also got a good rain the following day and got several days of rain over the past month. They have just started to sporut but most of what I see is the millett and some rye, nothing else AND many spots are fully bare.

Based on that info a few questions:

a) How long can seed stay out before it will germinate ? I know it needs water, warmth and some cool temps but how much time do I have. If I drop seed out and it does not rain for a month or two will it germinate once it does rain? Do I only have a limited period of time ie: before it cooks to death without moisture ?

b) Wheat/Oats- How long do they take to sprout ? I know millett can take as little as 2-3 days to sprout, Rye maybe 5-7 days.

c) Can some types of grasses suppress others ? I mix in some millett to add a bit of roots to the dirt FAST since we have bad errosion and it's cheap organic matter. Eventually I'll be tilling the soil and redoing things and the more green I have (nurse crop) the better in this clay. I thought the rye and millett would help keeping the other seed from washing away but maybe it's hurting things?

d) Can these different seeds have different depth needs leading to some growing and not others? Most of what I have heard on Kentucky 31 is rough up the soil drop the seed and lightly touch the back of a rake over the seed so that the soil makes contact. The Rye/Wheat/Oat mix is usually sold as no till needed but I box bladed, disked seeded then dragged a landscape tie over the one plot to just even things out, kind of standard. The other plots that were tilled the guy who did it hand seeded and fertilized. It was real powdery after the tilling (and lots of trees) so I did not drag but I drove the ATV over it a bit, not every inch but compacted it a bit with the ATV in most areas. Well Millett, by what I have seen just drop it on the ground, wet it once and it will grow, must be a weed! I have never not had millett not germinate in a blink of an eye. I have done the same with Rye but it seems that takes more moisture and time.

e) I'd like to overseed once I see what has grown and how thick. How late (cold) can it be ? We are in SC so temps are not too bad. I want a thick "carpet" as much as possible to keep the soil in place during our wet winter season. In addition to that since most of my soil becomes hard packed clay I want as much organic material as possible to grow. When early spring comes I will possibly want to till all this stuff in, lime and fertilize again and grow another cover crop to keep the soil soft during the summer. Hopefully in another 12 months I can get the soil to become hard enough to work on without a jack hammer which will also help things grow. Yes I have done soil tests and the local farm store read the reports and suggested nothing more than 10-10-10 which I have used on and off over the past year. I am still waiting to get some manure (probably turkey) and other organic material in but it will probably be another few months. I don't want to have any trucks in tearing up the little bit I have growing and spooking the deer during hunting season. I am also trying not to grow a lot of expensive stuff, late December or January my acreage will have a controlled burn done to knock down all the overgrowth.

 

[Western]

Rich,
I'll give it a try. There are a couple of things I read that may be the problem, this is only mt opinion and it is possible that this early in the morning I miss understood some of you queries
1. Usually you want to lime a couple of months prior to planting seed, this allows the lime to neutralize the PH and and weaken, it's pretty tough on a seedling. Established grasses can handle it better.
2. If you disced the seed in, odds are you put alot of them to deep, I planted Nora seed oats this year, rained 1 1/2" the same day and they began sprouting 3 day's later, but it took about 6 days to get a good full sprout. A rule of thumb I use is, seed depth no more than 3-4 times the seed length. Thats why I never understand why some food plot seed blends have seed from clover size to pea size. Don't take my word for it, speak to a good seed rep.

Heres what I do, I disc one direction 1st, then I fertilize. Then I cross disc, I don't "deep plow", I only try to get 3-4 inchs. I may deep plow every 4-5 years or so. After I have crossed disced I broadcast my seed, generally 80% oats and 20 % wheat since we don't generally get a "freeze out" here. then I use a drag. The drag I use now is 7 tires wired together and pulled behind my tractor. I have used a farm gate I made with 4 gauge 2x4 non climb mesh pattern and that work real good at breaking clods. I know some of my seed will be to deep, the ones in the deeper "valley's" so I over seed, oats can go up to 1" deep. I want my drag to "float" some what, disturbing the top layer, but not pulling a mound of dirt. After it is all dragged, I broadcast a rye that grows well here.

A cultipacker works great for small seed. It rolls over the (prepared) seed bed and basically compresses the seed into the soil and helps remove voids and air pockets in the dirt. You can buy one or if your industrial you can make one pretty easy.

Seed size DOES matter, small seed like clovers, alfalfa ect tra, maybe up to 3/16ths to 1/4 inch deep.

Seed can sit dormant for some time, depending.... on enviromental conditions. Some people in the north can broadcast some seeds on the snow for a spring growth (depending on the crop).

If I was growing for commercial reason I may go a more traditional route like buying a seeder ect tra, but I mainly plant for deer plots and domestic animal graze.

Bottom line, I think possibly your lime timing and seed depth may be your culprits.

 

[kthompson]

Ticked, had went to great effort and for some reason when I hit submit the web site kicked me out and lost the post.

Shorten a lot:

I suspect the lime and fertilizer could had negative impact if in contact with seed or just sprouted.

In my part of SC we plant oats and wheat around Thanksgiving. You probably are a week or so earlier.

Check your seeding rates, you could be just not using enough seed. When broadcasting you use something like 25% more to make up for the loss. I have disked in oat seed that was broadcast fine with disk at about 2 inches.

Seeds will lay for a year if conditions are right and still come up. Watch any field for this with last years crop.

Have used rye grass on my yard many times for over seeding with just good cut of lawn grass and broadcast. There is a lot less germination this way so any decent tearing up of the dirt should work fine.

I have found where trees are taken out can be a challenge for a while. Guess chemicals are out of balance. Some trees saw dust will kill crops or prevent the germination of seeds.

Do look at Clemson's web site if you have not. They have a ton of info including planting dates for our state. Oh, clay soil, joy. kt

Clemson University Cooperative Extension Service

 

[RobJ]

Check my recent post in the Rular Living section about my 3 week plots, then another thread 3 weeks earlier (when I planted).

Lime, I always hear lime this year for next year.
Fertilize - My locals like to fertilize after they sprout and get a few inches up.
Covering seed, good pic in the post I mentioned above. Seed drug with a drag, not so good(even though the soil wasn't freshly disked). On the section I ran over with the disk 2-3 inches deep, the whole oats are up 4+ inches, peas 3"+ to. With only one good rain.

Down here planting oats in August probably would be a killer. They always like the shade anyway around here.

I might add last year I think I god a bad bag of rye, none of the stuff came up much, same areas and conditions as this year.

Good Luck,
Rob

 

[SCRich]

Interesting stuff guy's thanks! I got to agree the lime did not sound right, my Dad always said that you had to time it right if not the grass/seed would burn but I am trying to think back 30+ years. BUT the locals make comments like anything will grow here you just got to lime the He$$ out of it first AND second. All of this land was overgrown pine tree farm for the papermills and got sold off, wide roads were cut and fencing put in before they sold the land. All of this happened in a matter of 1 year, and one of the people who said lime, lime and then lime some more if you are sure you limed enough was the person who cleaned up and sub-divided the land. He planted the initial Kentucky 31 which got torn up by construction, parking, etc. along the road. That grew quite well the first time so he must have done something right and I know it was done in a short period of time. Only thing different was that they hired a company to come with a "chopper" to shred the straw bails to a fine coating of straw vs. me where I ended up doing it by hand which does not give as nice coverage. I have heard others state 6-8 weeks for lime prior to seeding and I have heard others state never to lime during moist seasons....It's all confusing a lot of people have differing opinions.

The starter fertilizer I got no idea, makes sense, I should have not done both on the same day but I had little time and the instructions did not say anything to the contrary. Then I wonder if I just did not use enough...maybe it's not that I burned it but I just did not use enough to make a difference. The lime was not the problem along my road frontage, the seed was down for at least a month and it had rained several times prior to me spreading the pellet lime.

With this redi-mix stuff of no till oats, wheat and rye I have no idea. I guess they sell it and just hope for the best and that no one complains. The seeds are 3 different sizes so if they need to be planted at different depths I don't know what they expect. Maybe rye and millett but I don't know about the oats and wheat.

Lesson learned is to plant in correct order and I would expect disk, oats and or wheat, rake let grow. Once they have grown to a few inches then drop seed over the new stuff for rye or millett since that seems to grow quite well when just dropped on the ground. As long as we don't get a strong rain it should not wash away. Maybe....

 

[RobJ]

Here is a goot example of cover and no cover...

First pic the oats were planted 9/1, on 9/7 I covered them with the disk. You can see on 9/7 nothing has popped up at all. I think we also got a light raing after 9/1. Then on 9/27 the part I covers is doing very well, while the part only dragged has little sprouting. I bet if I covered the ramaining side with the disk the results would be dramatic.

The second pic is 9/27.

Rob

 

[SCRich]

I don't know if my disker is good enough to really cover since the dirt is so hard but maybe. I have seen disks out there and then DISKS! All I have is a small King Kutter ATV disk and it does not do all that well in my soil, OK but not too well. This winter I am going to try to weld up some trays where I can drop 4 concrete blocks on top of that thing. Everyone says to lightly cover, use a hand rake or a drag harrow but that just goes to show you that everyone is not always right.

I took a few photos myself, it been quite some time since I have attached photos but let me see if I can post 4 of them. You will see a photo from a few weeks ago, and 2 from a couple of hours ago, one is a close up of the clover and I think Rye. I don't think anything in there is oat or wheat and that is my concern. BTW what is the germination period of oats and wheat ? The final photo is along the road frontage with the Kentucky 31 I am having trouble with. The ground was fully covered with the straw but then we got a nor'easter come through a week or 2 ago and blew the straw all over the place, a crimper is not something most people have in their back pocket.

 

[Skerby]

Was it backfilled with soil high in herbicide residual?
You can't lime w/o knowledge of your soil ph. My soil was 7.3 so i put down ammonium sulfate (20-0-0-22) for my starter nitrogen, but tilled it in before seeding my ky-31. Also, the straw wont gaurantee good soil contact. I didn't use any straw for 1.21 acres of ky-31 i did this past 9/11/08. but i DID cultipack the seed and that seems to have made all the difference.

 

[RobJ]

Everyone says to lightly cover, use a hand rake or a drag harrow but that just goes to show you that everyone is not always right.

right/wrong, different things work for different people. A really hard rain will get things going and put more seed under the dirt. I made a pass with the spreader under some trees with some hard red clay, didn't attempt to cover them. Then came Ike. they are up a few inches now. BTW not much change in my plots this weekend, haven't had any rain since Ike, Sept. 13.

Pictures didn't make it, might try again..

 

[rcowan]

Check with your county extension office and college in your area/state that has an agriculture program.