Are you off the Grid?

[Cacinok]

Even before we bought our property (and spent a cold night w/o power and subsequently heat), I wanted to be able to generate my own electricity and eventually get off of the (electric company power) grid. I think it has to do with being self sufficient and the challenge of it. I am thinking long term self generated power, so unless we strike gas under our Oklahoma property, I think an internal combustion generator is only a temporary fix.

Being in the research phase of my project, I come to you (all) Oh great brain trust of the Forums. I would like to know what, if anything, you do to generate your own electricity.

I, eventually, would like to set up a solar array with a wind turbine or two feeding into a battery setup (or something, I am just thinking what would work for my area). Tell me what ya got and what ya think about it. I’d like to hear about anything that can generate electricity, from solar panels to Dean Kamen type adaptations of Sterling Engines.

Links are good, as are book titles, etc. I’ve read a lot of what is available at Home Power Magazine, but I thirst for more (uh) enLIGHTenment.

Clint.

P.S. I've read a good chunk of the archived info about this subject on TBN. I'm interested in solar, but would like to hear about other methods as well. Are the alternatives methods of power generation as expensive as solar?
P.P.S. I am by no means an environmental wacko, I’d just rather save the oil/gas for my truck and tractor.

 

[RobertN]

Until recently, my Uncle was off the grid. The subdivision up in the mountians, mostly 10 and 20 acre lots, had telephone line run, but no electricity.

He moved back to town after a bad back problem operattions, ect. Over the years, he has went from gas light, gas stove/fridge/dryer, and generator, and moved on up to photo cells with batteries and less dependance on the generator. He still used the generator to pump water, and run big tools(compressor, welder, drill press ect) in the shop.

I have looked a bit too. Calif has had some great rebates going. I have talked to companies that specialize in getting people off the grid, and figured approximately $25k after rebates. I still think that would assume some gas for dryer, cooking. I did not find out how a system would run a well pump. That price was for them to come in, do a total fit-up, and presto you're off the grid, and in some cases selling back to the grid.

I didn't get far enough into it to see about better priced alternatives though.

 

[TresCrows]

The reason everyone for the most part is "on the grid" is because the economics of scale makes it much cheaper. The only time there is reason to be off grid is remote areas or as a hobby. Back up power--yes--off the grid--NO. You will find the cost of batteries and storage devices is very high and constant maintenece will be required. Just an opinion. J

 

[dmccarty]

Clint,

I went to a class put on by the NC Solar Center last May. It
was about building passive/active solar houses, power
generation, etc. The expense number that popped into my
head to use photo cells for power generation was $30,000.
Its interesting that RobertN said 25K. One can buy LOTS
of power for 25-30k. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Which goes to what TresCrows said. I think putting in
photocells only makes sense when the grid is to expensive
to be brought to the site. Otherwise its a waste of money.

Money. Its an evil term in some circles. In the class I
mentioned I would guess that 30% of the people where in the money is evil crowd. They are totally clueless about
money. The idea that money DOES and IS a measure of
value and worth is either evil to them or beyond their
understanding. From the questions many of them asked and
the ideas that they espoused they just are sold on the idea of
going off the grid because it will make the world a better
place. Money be danged.

The instructers where very level headed and understood the
money issues and mentioned it several times but that does
not fit into their dogma. One other thing about solar cells is
that supposedly the energy used in the production of the cells
will be equal to or greater than the power production of the
cells over their lifetime. So in a larger since a solar cell is
just a weird battery....

But if one is off the grid, solar cells can make perfect sense.

Another problem with the cells is that you pretty much have
to give up on AC. And one has to use gas fridges and
appliances. Now this is not bad but if one has to get off the
grid. But ** I ** WANT my AC!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

One of the speakers in the class is a builder and has had a
few stories written about his house. His house is an active
and passive solar heated and COOLED structure. The only
problem he has is humidty at times during the summer. He
swore the house works.

There is a builder in Wake Forest, NC who makes active and
passive heated and cooled log homes. We viewed one of
his houses under construction and looked at his prices. The
bottom like, aka money, was that his house designs required
us to make too many compromises. Basically his houses where
three levels. The center of each level was comprised of
bathrooms, utilities and stairs. Of each center was a room.
So each floor bascially had a room off the stairs. or two rooms
per floor. His designs also where large for the usabile square
footage. We wanted around a 2,500 to 3,000 sf house with
rooms having certain sizes. Nothing huge at all. To do this
with his designs pushed us up into houses that where from
4,500 to 6,500 sf! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

The current house plan we are 99.99999% going to build is
2,525 sf. on one level. If the solar house required us to
increase the size of the structure by 1,000 sf and it cost
$100/sf well that is $100,000. How much power can I buy
for 100K! How much ENERGY does it cost to add that much
space to a house? The house may be cheap to live in but
its way overpriced in the long term.

Now the Wake Forrest builder's houses are an extreme example
I think. I'm sure his houses work. I just don't they are worth
the money.

I tried real hard to design our house as a passive solar design.
The design we had over the summer was near 3,300 sf on two
stories. When the builder gave us a cost estimate we lopped
off the second floor added some space to the first floor and
are now at 2,525 sf. But doing this cost us a tax benefit
for some aspects of the passive design. We will have passive
built into the house but it not going to be as "good" as it
was before. But it certainly is cheaper. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

After getting this far into this long note, /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, I think it gets
down to balance of money and power generation/saving. I'm
guessing that our house will have very low power usage for
a couple of reasons. We are going to put in solar water heat
as well as an instant water heater. Since hot water
production is expensive energy wise this should help lower
our power use. Plus the state gives me a tax break! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif We
have more downed trees than we know what to do with so
for heat we will have a good wood burning stove. We will
still have a heat pump for the cooling but hopefully the major
heating will be from the stove. Also we want to put in a
radient floor heat system that will use solar heat. The house
will have 2x6 walls, good windows and well insulated. I'm
hoping we can get the builder to caulk and foam all over to
stop air inflitration. With all of this I'm hoping our energy
USE will be drastically decreased while increasing the livabilty
of the house at no or little cost.

Power production has to be cheap. My power bill for my 1977
ranch house was $170 for January. That is a high mark.
Usually its around $120. The house is not what I would call
energy efficient, everything is electric but it only cost me
at MOST a whopping $6 per day. Thats pretty cheap.

Bringing the tractor back into this discussion. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Part of my
sizing of which tractor to buy was based on being able to
power my house in outages. Not sure I will do this with the
tractor buy I wanted the option. The best I can tell it costs
me a half gallon of fuel per hour running at PTO speed. At
$1.50 per gallon that would be .75/hour. So if I ran the
tractor 24 hours a day it would cost me at least $18 in fuel
alone. Now one would not run the generator like this if one
was off the grid, I think batteries would be part of the picture
but batteries are not cheap and have to be replaced so the
comparison is valid or at least interesting. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wind and hydro power is just not a viable option for me and
I think for most people.

I think the best bang for the buck is good building design to
take advantage of passive solar heat with maybe the use
of active. Solar cooling is possible but I don't know how one
can defeat the humidity issue. I'm hoping that our house
design will keep our power bills in the $50-100 range for most
of the year. Summer maybe different. But heating the house
is not going to be a problem.

Well, I have rambled enough. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

My two cents...
Dan McCarty

 

[hazmat]

<font color="blue">The current house plan we are 99.99999% going to build is
2,525 sf. on one level. If the solar house required us to
increase the size of the structure by 1,000 sf and it cost
$100/sf well that is $100,000. How much power can I buy
for 100K! How much ENERGY does it cost to add that much
space to a house? The house may be cheap to live in but
its way overpriced in the long term.
</font>

Dan sounds like this technology is still in its infancy. Society needs individuals pusing the envelope, but the bottom line is I'm not willing to fund their science project (yet). Hopefully this builder is able to spin off some the ideas he has developed that are able to be incorporated in the "real world" for example maybe reduce the cooling load on a house with more conventional design (and cost).

This is a classic example of the technology life cycle "price", I'll use a consumer product as the example

1. Discovery, technology So expensive that only govts, large companies, or Bill Gates can afford it.
2. Infancy, considered a luxer item for the modestly rich
3. Maturity, average Joe middle class american can afford it
4. Obosolete, 2nd & 3rd world citizens can "afford" it.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi,

I built a passive solor house...well, shouldn't use the past tense...it's become a never-ending project...started out with a desire to REALLY do it, but backed off and while we have a lot of windows and face due south, we decided to forgoe filling the house with extra mass to hold heat and use natural gas for heating. Over the years we have come to appreciate the fact that Pittsburgh is not the best place to build a passive solar home anyway...just not enough sun when you need the heat!

But on those sunny days...it does feel real good. Especially if you feel like taking a nap on a sunny, cold snowy white day. Getting off track here...sorry!

If you have ample funds and want to do something different for the fun of it, then go for it! BUT, if you are like most of us and have limited resources, you may want to give serious thought to where you would most like to spend that money.

Would you rather use that money for electrical independence, or say, buy a better tractor or more implements? It is sort of like using Bio diesel fuel over the regular, cheaper stuff. Bio smells better [I hear] and costs more, probably feels better to use and may offer other advantages. I choose to use the cheaper conventional fuel and use the difference in cost to buy my french fries with my lunch. Others feel good about using the bio fuel...both ways are fine.

I think the bottom line is cutting the electrical umbilical cord will cost you. But going to a movie costs you too. All depends on how much it is worth to you do do that.

 

[rationalizer]

Typically, when you start asking questions about these new technologies, it turns out that there are significant costs or "hidden issues" involved. The "marketplace" is typically very efficient - particularly when it comes to "energy costs" (which are a "commodity") You are finding that when it comes to "solar power" etc.

I think the same thing is true for our President's recent call for "zero emission hydrogen powered vehicles" You have to ask "where does the hydrogen come from" - and if you use more energy (coal, oil etc) to "manufacture" hydrogen (separate it from the oxygen in H2O etc.) - then you haven't gained much except changing the location of the polluting source...

The amount of energy we use is huge - "energy independence" will take monumental changes in how we live - and what we pay. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the years to come.

Bill

 

[RobertN]

When I looked over the last year, it seemed more of economy of scale than infancy in the life cycle. The technology works, and has been proven. But, they just don't make enough of it for the prices to come down. It seems it has just been languishing around because it's hard to compete with grid on a voulme basis.

 

[hazmat]

Bill,

I get a kick out of the Hydrogren fuel research project as well. If I'm remebering correctly the cheapest way to make hydrogen isn't by electrolosis, but by some chemical reaction / refining process on hydrocarbon fuels (I think it was Methane).

It do believe it may help with overall emmisions, although only a small amount. I read an article once in Car & Driver claiming that California would further reduce emmisions at a lower cost by purchasing new cadillacs for persons driving old cars. Granted they are a bit biased, but I tend to agree epescially considering that the smog emmisions on today's cars are orders of magnitude less than they were 20 years ago. Greenhouse gases (CO2) are another story, if they are even a problem (I'm not convinced either way) only solved by people driving less.

 

[BillG_in_TX]

How about a Fuel Cell ? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif To tie this in to tractors, I notice that Kubota will have the distribution rights in Japan!

You might have to wait a few years for the technology to be widely available and the price to come down, but it sure looks interesting.