GUN SAFE

[jonyyuma]

Sigarms, curious, what are the big boys using inside the safes for fire resistance.. Note: I did not say Fireproof?

 

[wrooster]

Sigarms, curious, what are the big boys using inside the safes for fire resistance.. Note: I did not say Fireproof?

Not Sigarms, but here is how Sturdy does it:
Fire Gun Safe Info : Gun Safes : Fire Safes : Sturdy Safe

3" of 2300° Ceramic Wool & 1000° High Temp Glass

Sturdy Gun Safes uses 2300 degree U.L. listed ceramic wool, and U.L. listed 1000 degree high temperature glass blankets to line the fireproof safes. We feature 3 " of fire liner for the top, bottom and door of the safes, and 3" of insulator compressed to 2" for each wall to prevent the material from shaking downward. This insulator duo is designed to keep heat out with the virtually the same engineering used to keep heat in around extreme heat ovens and kilns. This true insulator is not cheap, and will not loose structural integrity even after a fire. It can easily be fitted into the tightest of places without having open seam problems.

Note that generic sheetrock, found in a lot of low and mid-range RSC's, is a poor substitute for proper fire liner.

Wrooster

 

[jonyyuma]

Okay, i can see what all the rattling is about now...I could see where retro fit of new insulation might be in line?That wool looks pretty good and a much better way to insulate?PLUS, a 14 guage inside liner? now I see where these puppies gained so much weight. Now I feel a little uneasy seeing the new versions...Thanks, previous to this i just "had the warm fuzzy feelings". Now to check out availability of said insulation?

 

[CurlyDave]

... I also will point out these guys both told me they look first around the room for the combo written somewhere. Its almost always written close by so keep that in mind when you write the combo down on the wall someone will be looking for it so hide it good. :laughing: (both are trained locksmiths btw )

There are alternatives for writing down the combination. If I am going to write down a combination, I write the individual numbers in binary, not base 10. This will be incomprehensible to the average burglar.

Or, put the combination in your address book. Add enough extra digits to disguise it as a phone number.

Even more stealthy is to drive around until you find houses with addresses which are the same as the numbers in your combination. Take a picture of the houses, with the street address legible, and distribute them on random pages in a photo album, with lots of other pix. You could even have your wife stand in in the foreground of the picture.

 

[Sigarms]

CB, I only suggested the extra layer of 7 gauge because you seem intent on wanting the 5 gauge safe. Personally, a "base" 7 gauge constructed safe is more than adequate IMO, at least where I live (keep in mind, the door is 5/16 by itself). As mentioned, with a fire liner, you also have an added 14 gauge interior (which you could upgrade to 10 gauge if wanted). For myself, I honestly believe ALWAYS get a bigger safe than you think you will need, particularly if you have anything else of value if you want to protect other than firearms (if you're married, never hurts to work than angle:laughing

jonyyuma

I believe you are correct, no safe is "fireproof". If you do some research, you will be amazed at the debate on fireproof safes, particularly when it comes to their actual "testing" and how they are rated (this opens a whole other can of worms up). For myself, since I wanted to actually get something that was "quality made" and offer the greatest chance of helping some items survive a house fire (let's face it, if your house burns down, you may have more to worry about than what is in your safe), it came down to two options. Buy another "cheap" safe and hope for the best, or spend more money.

I'm guessing the majority of your Cannon safes (as well as all those other sub 1k safes at box stores) are made in China with God knows what kind of materials as well as what kind of labor (reason why they are so cheap). What it came down to was the fact I was trusting an American Made company with live American employee's, as well as being able to talk to the owner of that American made company directly myself, and not have him (Terry) try to "sell" me on only his safe, but answer my questions. Since I was spending some "big" bucks (at least IMO on what I'd never thought I'd spend on a gun safe) I wanted to actually talk to the companies whose product I was considering buying. By far, I found Terry's family (wife and daughter as well) more knowledgeable and friendly than the two other companies I had talked with.

Their (Sturdy) videos also helped in my buying decision as it struck me that they were one of the few companies "who put it out there" for people to see what they should look for (I'm not a safe expert by any means, but it made sense to me). The Liberty Presidential line was also in my sights, but I couldn't justify the price difference with the quality, and I also took into account that Liberty imports Chinese made safes as well and stamps their name to them.

If you haven't seen some, I'd suggest looking at a couple...

10000lb. Forklift Pull Test On Sturdy Gun Safe Door - YouTube

Pry Bar Test On a Sturdy Gun Safe With Deadbolts Removed! - YouTube

Sturdy Gun Safe 9lb. Sledge Hammer Deadbolt Test Video - YouTube

How To Test A Gun Safe For Good Linkage and Why Supported Dead Bolts Are Best. Video - YouTube

Breaking Into A 10 Gauge Gun Safe. 4 Different Ways. Drill Punch Attack - YouTube

I found those above links a little more helpful in my buying decision than an example of the following one

Beware of the Safe! Browning Prosteel Safes - YouTube

Please keep in mind, I believe that there are better quality made safes out there, but they are no where in the price range as you will find the Sturdy (well, one in American Security came close, but I had read so much about Sturdy's customer service and was more than please in talking with them that I decided to go with them). I didn't hop on this discussion to push the Sturdy brand, but wanted to point out that sometimes you do get what you pay for. I, like many, were/are satisfied with my cheap safes for keeping kids and guys on dope from my firearms, but I decided to actually look/research what the differences were on the "cheap" safes to the more expensive safes (why don't the majority of people on this forum go to Northern Tool and buy a 7k tactor?). What I found really surprised me. Get a bunch of guys, go in on a cheap safe, do a little research, and see if you can open it. You may surprise yourself.

Let's face it, technically we're not even talking about safes here, but residential security containers.

 

[jonyyuma]

Residential security containers==Exactly, makes me want to see if I can find another label on mine as to where it was built. I definitely know it is not nearly a good as the best available now. I cannot even remember just how long I have had it?Good tip about the tractor from NT, i did not even consider one of them, even though I bought an 8yearold?

 

[wrooster]

I don't really see the reason for adding the 7 gauge steel plate to the side of the cabinet. If the safe is already 5 or 7 gauge, which is supposedly too thick to get through with an ax, then how does the extra 7 gauge plate help?

Past a certain price point, the way into a safe is not through the front door. Note that this is outside the context of smash-and-grab type criminal. A determined and knowledgeable thief will have background on various approaches, and will either bring tools or rob someplace with the tools already on location (e.g., construction warehouse).

Nevertheless, above a certain RSC quality level there are too many barriers at the door for an effective approach -- multiple layers, stiffness, hardened or drill steel plates, relockers, etc. -- so the way in will be to cut an opening on the side or back of the safe using a metal cutting blade in a demolition saw, or using a torch. The size of the opening is dependent on the safe type; in some cases you can make a softball-sized hole and then use that to enable unlocking the door(*). In other cases, you need to cut a hole large enough to unload the safe. Hence, the reason for doubling up the steel on the safe is to prevent these types of cut-in attacks. Depending on the size of the hole desired, a 7 gauge RSC may require changing out a worn abrasive blade 2 or 3 times.

That said, the reason you don't see many cut-in attacks is because a) they are noisy, b) they take a long time, c) they require specialized tools, and d) they don't work out well in enclosed spaces (like a basement). Regarding the last comment, run a good-sized 2 cycle demolition saw at max RPM for 5 minutes in a basement and you'll see what I mean. The combination of exhaust fumes and metallic dust will drive even the most determined thief to abandon his mission. The same goes for using a torch -- once the metal is hot the RSC paint will start intumescing and burning, to say the least of the hot slag hitting the carpet and/or walls.

Yes, you can cut a 7 gauge safe open using ordinary tools owned by any masonry contractor in the country. You'd want to do it in your back yard, though, not in a basement or 12' x 12' "man cave". And it is going to take some time and make a ton of noise.

Wrooster

(*)
Incidentally, Sturdy uses a novel method to prevent working on the door lock mechanism through a hole in the side or back of their RSC. On the inside of the door there is a backing cover over the lock assembly, which in turn is riveted down. But more importantly, there is a vertical thru-bolt which freely rotates, with the threads peened over on the top where the nut is. In order to remove the cover, you'd have to get two hands into the safe, and (blindly) hold wrenches on both the bottom bolt head AND the top nut to get the bolt out, fighting the peened threads the whole way. And because it freely rotates you can't easily cut it, either from the front or the back. As a degreed mechanical engineer I thought this was a clever approach.

 

[Carl Bert]

I found a great deal on a Liberty Presidential model, but I am trying to find out the gauge of steel the body is made out of. It's not clearly stated, which makes me think that just the door is 7 gauge.

Its a beautiful safe and seems to be well made, but I then watched a video on utube, made by Liberty safe, showing 3 guys with pry bars trying to get in to a Presidential model, and although they didn't get in, the door, which is made of 7 gauge (same as sturdy) flexed a whole lot more then the Sturdy door did. In the Sturdy pry bar test the door didn't flex even a little bit.

So I guess the thickness of steel doesn't mean everything. You still need a good design that's properly welded.

Also with the Sturdy safe, a notch had to be cut out off the door in order to fit the pry bar between the door and frame (just to give the thief a fighting chance). Otherwise, with the door having such a tight fit, there is no room to even get a pry bar started. On the Liberty there was more then enough space.

Guess I just talked myself out of getting the Liberty

 

[yooper1]

This may be of interest:

Gun Safe Buyers' Guide

Gun Safe Buyers' Guide
What to Look for When Buying a Safe

 

[rickster]

The TSC winchester is a real nice safe for the $$ .:thumbsup:I've been real happy with mine