House for my Parents

[dave1949]

I heard someone in the housing industry on the radio talking about the tremendous rise in housing prices that occurred in the 60's/70's. The US was moving from one-income households to two-income households as women entered the workforce. In addition, the feds passed regulation that required mortgage companies to consider the wife's income in addition to the husband's income when people applied for a mortgage. Overnight, families started qualifying for much larger mortgages and house prices all over the country skyrocketed due to the increased demand.

So today, a house payment commonly requires two spouses to work in order to have the same house one working spouse used to be able to afford. It makes a person start to think ...

Makes me think I need more spouses

[jinman]

Actually, looking over the last 100 years, adjusted for inflation, housing prices have been flat (with the exception of the last boom that peaked in 2006):

Case Shiller 100 Year Chart (2011 Update) | The Big Picture

Attachment 290430

What amazes me most about charts like the one posted is that somebody actually got paid to create it and will attempt to defend the bogus data. The 'adjusted for inflation' phrase when talking about housing is smoke and mirrors. Housing is the major component of that inflation index. It's a self-fulfilling formula. When I bought my first house, it was roughly 1-1/2 times my annual salary. Considering my salary in 2008 when I retired, the average house was selling for between 4 and 5 times my annual salary. That's the figure that makes more sense to me. In 2001-2002 when I hired a local contractor and labor to build my current house, it was about twice my annual salary, but I just don't consider housing cost compared to inflation as a good metric since housing is such a large portion of that figure. What do you think? Am I full of prunes?

[dave1949]

A multiple of a salary doesn't account for the changes in the expectations people have for their home. Size, amenities, energy efficiency, central heat and air, indoor plumbing, quality of materials and so forth. It's hard to compare salary to inflation to house prices without compensating for those other factors.

The chart references existing homes, not new builds, but since 1890, there have been lots of changes in what people expect from a home.

[jinman]

The chart references existing homes, not new builds, but since 1890, there have been lots of changes in what people expect from a home.

You know. . . this year's 'new build' is next year's 'existing home.'

[dave1949]

You know. . . this year's 'new build' is next year's 'existing home.'

Yep. Old homes get re-habbed, added on to, and upgraded too. The stock of housing is not standing still. I guess the point is, that the chart is pulling in the average value of inhabited homes, some old, some new.

It wasn't all that long ago that multiple bathrooms were fairly uncommon in a standard family home. And kitchens used to be a sink, stove, frig, table, and a cabinet or two. People are choosing to put more money into their homes than they did in the past, and that can only happen with more income -- or more and longer-term debt.

If you could define the cost portion of today's mini-mansions that represent a "basic" house with the bare essentials and a fixed amount of floor space per occupant, I suppose a reasonable comparison of salary versus house cost could be made. What percentage of your home's cost would you strip away to make it comparable to the basic/average home of the past?

[Dr Dave]

Also your geographic location, will have a big effect. California 1 million dollar home, vs Iowa $100K home. Wages dont offset this. Now see were California property values are.

Dave

[dave1949]

Also your geographic location, will have a big effect. California 1 million dollar home, vs Iowa $100K home. Wages dont offset this. Now see were California property values are.

Dave

Very true. In this region, what you can buy here costs 4-5 times as much four hours away in Boston--if you could even find it when lot size is considered.

[jinman]

What percentage of your home's cost would you strip away to make it comparable to the basic/average home of the past?

Sometimes better is cheaper. Which is more expensive: PEX or Copper pipes? Which is more labor intensive to install? I'm also thinking a pier and beam foundation with crawl space is much more expensive than slab houses. Maybe post-tension foundations are a step up, but those houses don't have basements like older homes. It's absolutely true that we have more bathrooms, but I lived in a house in Port Deposit, Md that had a fireplace in every room except the baths. How much would that cost today? Yes, our kitchens are far advanced to kitchens of the past and our central heating and A/C didn't even exist until the early '50s. Insulation systems are driven by the price of energy and comfort. I have a metal roof on my house and it reminds me of the use of metal shingles during the war. My savings on insurance and long-term maintenance sure makes metal my preferred roof over composition shingles. I'm sure you are right Dave. I have many more gadgets in my house and wiring/cable/telephone lines to support them. Maybe wireless will one day do away with all telephone wiring and entertainment wiring. I would like to think that my house is nice and comfortable, but not overdone or a 'mini-mansion.' However, when you compare it to the frame home I grew up in that leaked when it rained and the wallpaper peeled away from the walls during windy days, this house is an absolute castle. We've come to expect a certain standard of living that includes a warm home and everyone wearing underarm deodorant. Wasn't there a time in our recent past when everyone's underarms smelled like. . .well. . . armpits?

[dave1949]

Sometimes better is cheaper. Which is more expensive: PEX or Copper pipes? Which is more labor intensive to install? I'm also thinking a pier and beam foundation with crawl space is much more expensive than slab houses. Maybe post-tension foundations are a step up, but those houses don't have basements like older homes. It's absolutely true that we have more bathrooms, but I lived in a house in Port Deposit, Md that had a fireplace in every room except the baths. How much would that cost today? Yes, our kitchens are far advanced to kitchens of the past and our central heating and A/C didn't even exist until the early '50s. Insulation systems are driven by the price of energy and comfort. I have a metal roof on my house and it reminds me of the use of metal shingles during the war. My savings on insurance and long-term maintenance sure makes metal my preferred roof over composition shingles. I'm sure you are right Dave. I have many more gadgets in my house and wiring/cable/telephone lines to support them. Maybe wireless will one day do away with all telephone wiring and entertainment wiring. I would like to think that my house is nice and comfortable, but not overdone or a 'mini-mansion.' However, when you compare it to the frame home I grew up in that leaked when it rained and the wallpaper peeled away from the walls during windy days, this house is an absolute castle. We've come to expect a certain standard of living that includes a warm home and everyone wearing underarm deodorant. Wasn't there a time in our recent past when everyone's underarms smelled like. . .well. . . armpits?

Good point that some newer replacements are cheaper than what they replaced.

I wasn't meaning to say your home is a mini-mansion, the pics you have posted show it to be nice house, but not what I was thinking of there. I mean the mega-subdivisions you see sprawling with 2500 to 3500 sq. ft. homes occupied by a couple and one or two kids. That's way over the top compared to not so long ago, and way more than what people need compared to what they want or, maybe what the market has convinced them they want. Media room? Wine room? Master Suite big enough to drop three older bedrooms into? Kitchen kitchen, basement kitchen and outdoor kitchen?

What's an armpit, do people even have those these days?

[EddieWalker]

Seems like we've been sick for weeks now and not able to get anything done. Thankfully that's all done and we're all better now.

Mom wanted a little bit of roof over the side door, so I built her this Laundry 200 amp panel with 6 GFCI outlets. One will have a ligh switch on it for the outlets on the eves for Christmas lights Just about ready to deck the roof

Eddie