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  1. #21
    Veteran Member tungularafishcamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    So is the reason so many areas are shotgun only for deer hunting to keep stray bullet travel down for safety? If so, then doesnt all these new rifled shot guns and high tech slugs defeat the purpose? Am not trolling here, just interested.
    Rick

  2. #22
    Veteran Member vtsnowedin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    Quote Originally Posted by g0rd0 View Post
    goto Lee Reloading Supplies | Reloading Equipment Lee Precision | Discount Reloading Supplies by Lee | Titan Reloading and check out the mold section. They have 1 once and 7/8once molds for rifled shotguns that are when cast loaded in standard hulls with standard 1 piece wads
    Certainly that will work but they won't do anything close to what a sub caliber jacketed bullet fired in a sabot will such as his SST's. You can buy the bullets of course but the right plastic wad and sabot are the things they don't sell to reloaders.

  3. #23
    Veteran Member vtsnowedin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    Quote Originally Posted by tungularafishcamp View Post
    So is the reason so many areas are shotgun only for deer hunting to keep stray bullet travel down for safety? If so, then doesnt all these new rifled shot guns and high tech slugs defeat the purpose? Am not trolling here, just interested.
    Even with all the new technology a shotgun slug has a rainbow trajectory and has a very hard time getting past 300 yards. A deer rifle in the 30-06 class on the otherhand if shot at an upward angle at a deer silhouetted on a ridge-line above the hunter will go about three miles if the hunter misses. Sorry to say that hunters can't always be counted on to know what is beyond their target and shotgun only rules will be prudent and in effect in built up areas for the foreseeable future.

  4. #24
    Veteran Member tungularafishcamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    Thanks, I thought if 20ga. were making 200+ yd killing shots they would travel considerably farther if missed but it is still a shotgun. I guess maybe I dont understand with rifling and solid projectile what makes it a shotgun anymore?
    Rick

  5. #25
    Platinum Member westcliffe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    Yes, the rules really were intended to keep people safer when hunting public land, but without using any scientific basis. That is precisely why these kinds of laws fail. In this part of the state, we have the largest concentration of people and of course the smallest amount of public land. I personally will not hunt public land in southern Michigan under any circumstances, shotgun rule or not. However, the law makes no exception for private land, regardless of lot size. At the time the rules were written, there probably were no rifle barreled shotguns. So if you were shooting a shotgun, you were shooting slugs down a smooth bore or shooting buckshot. Slugs down a smooth barrel have awful accuracy and using buckshot is probably limiting the hunter to a similar range as bow hunters.

    Of course over time the "shotguns" have become better and better until now they are getting to 45/70 performance levels. Many other things have happened, like introducing mandatory hunter safety training (which I did last year, I was the only adult in the class) and the hunter orange requirement. In some respects, non hunters are worse off on public land because people are so tuned to expect to see orange, but then again, the identification of the target is stressed in the hunter safety training. I am willing to bet though, that no-one in their right mind would go walking the dog on public land at this time of the year.

    So in reality, special weapons have evolved which meet the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. At the same time, deaths and injuries have actually fallen due to the orange requirement and training. All in all, the whole thing has become more expensive, because you now need a special type of gun and ammo for this 2 week season, then a different (muzzleloader) gun for the late season. All while sitting on one of the highest concentrations of whitetail deer in the US.

    Under the current circumstances, the law is a farce. The house committee approved legislation (again without scientific basis) to allow certain "straight walled cartridges" in rifles in the Shotgun zone. But the governor refused to sign it. The same governor refused to sign a bill which passed by an overwhelming majority to cease the registration of handguns and stop the redundant "permit to purchase" requirement. Snyder is a republican I might add.... the first we have had in a long time.

  6. #26
    Veteran Member tungularafishcamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    Thanks for the education, we sure can make things complicated for ourselves
    Rick

  7. #27
    Platinum Member westcliffe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    Just to illustrate how ridiculous this is, until 10 Nov I could hunt coyotes with a 50BMG if I pleased, but at night I have to have a rimfire or a shotgun. On Dec 1 the rules also revert back to this state (end of firearm deer season). So from Nov 15 to Nov 30 if I want to shoot a coyote it has to be with a shotgun, bow or crossbow. I'm not allowed to shoot them at night at all, since I "might" be poaching deer (which I could poach at any other time of the year, if I was so inclined).

    Now after Nov 30, I can go back out in the field with my centerfire rifles to shoot coyotes. But I am not allowed to shoot a deer, even if I have a tag and even if I brought a deer appropriate (second) weapon with me. Possession of a centerfire weapon is prohibited when hunting deer, at any time. So what that means, in essence, is that I have to choose whether I am hunting deer, or protecting sheep. My ML is not effective at the range I need for coyotes, nor does it group well enough at 250 yards to reliably hit a 5" kill zone. Lets not even mention the reloading problem.

    I won't even go into the fact that you cannot transport a long gun on your own property "in a vehicle" without it being unloaded and cased.

    Yep, thats what one gets with law makers. They write laws that criminalize things we need to do in our daily lives.

  8. #28
    Veteran Member tungularafishcamp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    wow, I gotta say you just made my day.It is blowing 35/40 knots 24 degrees, I have been in and out all day dabbling with a project til I get cold then back in to the wood stove and a little tbn and I am thinking it is gettin a little tough here. Then you share what you have to deal with on a daily basis just to do a little hunting, damm Now I know I live in paradise
    I feel for you, and am glad you can cope/deal with it, I am afraid I would be locked up pretty fast if I tried to live somewhere with that many rules. Thanks for making my afternoon!
    Rick

  9. #29
    Platinum Member westcliffe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    The way wildlife conservation is handled in general is great, and the fees that one pays to take a game animal are very modest. But when the DNR begins to control what you are allowed to do with your weapons and how you have to transport them (since their view of the world is that long guns are permitted for "sporting purposes only") it becomes a bit much. A violation is at least a firearm misdemeanor offense, so one can kiss your conceal carry permit goodbye.

    Unfortunately, there are reasons why people want to leave the state. I am probably not ready for Alaska at this point in my life, but the western states beckon, as long as you stay out the cities and resort towns. I am a bit worried about politics at the state level in Colorado, but they seem to be keeping their heads better than Michigan. I have lived in this state now for 9 years and we are still going to court with Quame Killpatric, the former Detroit mayor. Every year, property taxes go up (for those who pay) to compensate for the declining population and employment and its devastating effect on the state and local government income. It doesn't seem to occur to anyone (except private sector wage earners) that shrinking incomes and employment means living within your means and scaling back on the empire.

    The township of Westcliffe, or perhaps I should say Custer County Colorado seem to have their heads on straight and I am pretty aligned with their philosophy. For now its a waiting game and as my wife tells me occasionally, "smile and nod, dear".....

  10. #30
    Platinum Member westcliffe01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finally shot my first buck this morning...

    I think that the problem is that DNR gave no thought to the needs of farmers and their designated representatives when they compiled the game and fish act. They did not even consider to provide a straight forward way for such people to apply for permits to make it possible to have effective predator control. For instance, it is now legal to own suppressors in Michigan, but there is no mechanism to allow for their use when doing predator control near livestock on a farm. That would be because unlike 22 other states, in Michigan suppressors remain illegal for the taking of game animals, and the coyote and fox are defined as being game.

    The problem will solve itself, because it will become uneconomic to raise free range sheep in this state. Everything will consolidate to feedlot operations which are a public health nuisance, but hey, there is no need to install predator proof fencing around 100 acres for less than 150 sheep.

    Perhaps there were so few predators left when they wrote the act that they wanted to increase the numbers, but if left unchecked it is going to be their undoing. Not the DNR but farming.

    Quote Originally Posted by tungularafishcamp View Post
    wow, I gotta say you just made my day.It is blowing 35/40 knots 24 degrees, I have been in and out all day dabbling with a project til I get cold then back in to the wood stove and a little tbn and I am thinking it is gettin a little tough here. Then you share what you have to deal with on a daily basis just to do a little hunting, damm Now I know I live in paradise
    I feel for you, and am glad you can cope/deal with it, I am afraid I would be locked up pretty fast if I tried to live somewhere with that many rules. Thanks for making my afternoon!

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